...

 BK>>>>  Since Toyota's *average* hourly pay is within a few dollars of
 BK>>>>  the American automakers, it must not be too high. It most
 BK>>>>  certainly is not $40/hr. Not even for skilled workers.

 BK>>>>  I just looked it up. Current top pay is $32.83/hr. That's top
 BK>>>>  skilled labor.

 BA>>> UAW ain't skilled labor.

 BK>>  Bob, you just displayed ignorance of the reality of factory
 BK>>  work. You see those videos of foreign factories with robotics,
 BK>>  well they have that in American plants also.

 BK>>  Major auto company UAW milwrights, machinists, tool and die
 BK>>  makers, electricians, and machine repairmen are top of the line.  And
 BK>> machine repairmen are not just mechanics, but highly skilled  level
 BK>> of machine repair.

 BA> None of those skilled *crafts* are assembling automobiles.
 BA> I also suspect that none of those skilled *craftsmen* are
 BA> UAW members, those *crafts* have their own unions.

 The pay you have been talking about is for UAW employees of the
 auto plants. Not just assemblers. That $32.83 is for tool and
 die makers. Those are skilled trades workers anywhere I have
 heard of.

 Assemblers are the ones running as low as $14/hr at the low end.
 Not skilled trades.

 Bob, there are unions for various crafts. There is a
 millwright's union and an electrician's union and the
 international association of machinists in this area. However,
 the millwrights and tool and die makers and electricians where I
 work are all United Steel Workers of America. That is typical
 for in house employees. Some places do have two unions or more,
 but most companies prefer one.

 When I started in electronics, in 1966, the plant where I worked
 had production workers and test equipment repair. The techs on
 the floor were in with the production workers, and were IBEW.
 The test equipment techs were IAM. When I was a supervisor with
 the local cable company, back in 1974, the hourly workers,
 installers and techs and warehouse, were Teamsters.

 ...

 BK>>>>  Total labor cost is about $55/hr for GM, $49/hr for Toyota and
 BK>>>>  Honda. From what I have read GMs cost will drop over the term of
 BK>>>> the contract. Adjusted for inflation.

 BA>>> That includes the benefits paid to retired workers and the
 BA>>> families of retired workers?  I don't think so.  Health

 BK>>  We were talking about the pay of workers, not former workers.
 BK>>  Pensions are out of a pension fund, not current cash flow.
 BK>>  Medical benefits have been moved to a similar fund.

 BA> And both of those funds get their money from current (and
 BA> future) cash flow.

 No, they do not. The pension plan has it's own investments. Why
 do you think pension funds own so much in the stock market. The
 new medical benefits plan, the one for retirees, remember, is
 being funded seperately. It apparently is going to be backed by
 GM stock, which should be interesting with the current price.

 BK>>  The only real problem is the lack of a real national health care
 BK>> plan to pick up the difference. All Americans should have full
 BK>> health coverage, which would eliminate the health benefits  problem
 BK>> for all employers.

 BA> Oh baloney, Bob.  You keep harping on nationalizing the
 BA> health care system as if that were a good thing.  The only

 It is, compared to what we have now.

 BA> thing nationalizing the health care system will accomplish
 BA> is the destruction of quality health care in this country

 Not unless republicans are running it. America's health care
 system in on the low end of evaluations of industrialized
 countries. America even ranks low compared to Cuba. We have the
 best medical technology, and about the worst delivery system.

 BA> (and vastly improving it along the US border in Mexico,
 BA> Bermuda, the Caribbean islands and probably Canada).

 Funny you should mention Canada. And we are already sending
 people to Mexico for health care, and India, and South East
 Asia.

 BA> You'll also see the best and brightest choosing careers
 BA> other than medicine; heck, for years physicians have been
 BA> advising their children *not* to go into medicine.

 And that's under our current system.

 BA> You're also inconsistent.  You want to have the government
 BA> take over the health care system but you don't demand that
 BA> the government *also* take over the food production and
 BA> distribution system.  After all, food is much more
 BA> necessary to continued existence than is health care.

 And the food production and distribution system are not in the
 trouble the medical care system is. If we had 45 million people
 in this country who could not get food we would have riots in
 the street.

 BA>>> care benefits alone for GM amounted to over $1,300 of the
 BA>>> price of every vehicle GM made - and that was several years
 BA>>> ago, it's probably more than that now.

 With national health care that cost will vanish, and be
 equalized with foreign manufacturers.


BOB KLAHN bob.klahn{at}sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Bad luck? Bad luck? My luck's so bad my virtual pet ran away...
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