Replying to a message of Bob Klahn to Bob Ackley:

 BK>>>>>  After all, since the american auto makers don't
pay that much
 BK>>>>>  less than Toyota, The idea that the American auto
workers are
 BK>>>>>  the problem is nonsense.

 BA>>>> Forty bucks an hour plus benefits for what is basically
 BA>>>> unskilled labor is not nonsense.  Receiving full or nearly

 BK>>>  Yes, it is, since that is not what unskilled workers get.

 BA>> It certainly is.  Auto workers are basically unskilled
 BA>> labor and they make more than the mechanics that have to
 BA>> fix their mistakes.

 BK>  Bob, you are ignoring the facts, even when they are in front of
 BK>  your face. I gave you the highest rate, $32.83/hr. And unskilled 
 BK> beginners go as low as $14/hr.

 BK>>> Oh,
 BK>>>  while we are at it, why would any salary for unskilled work, no
 BK>>>  matter how high, be objectionable. Remember, the law of supply
 BK>>>  and demand does *NOT* have anything in it to say how skilled the
 BK>>> labor is, only on what it takes to hire people to do it. Would  you
 BK>>> want to do factory work for $10 or $15/hr?

 BA>> Depends.

 BK>  IOW, a non-answer. Why do you think the law of supply and demand 
 BK> should be repealed?

 BK>>>  Since Toyota's *average* hourly pay is within a few dollars of
 BK>>>  the American automakers, it must not be too high. It most
 BK>>>  certainly is not $40/hr. Not even for skilled workers.

 BK>>>  I just looked it up. Current top pay is $32.83/hr. That's top
 BK>>>  skilled labor.

 BA>> UAW ain't skilled labor.

 BK>  Bob, you just displayed ignorance of the reality of factory
 BK>  work. You see those videos of foreign factories with robotics,
 BK>  well they have that in American plants also.

 BK>  Major auto company UAW milwrights, machinists, tool and die
 BK>  makers, electricians, and machine repairmen are top of the line.  And
 BK> machine repairmen are not just mechanics, but highly skilled  level
 BK> of machine repair.

None of those skilled *crafts* are assembling automobiles.  I also suspect that
none of those skilled *craftsmen* are UAW members, those *crafts* have their
own unions.

 BK>  A factory is not all assemblers and machine operators, every
 BK>  machine out there needs to be maintained. And that is done by
 BK>  maintenance personel in house. One of my former co-workers went
 BK>  to one of the automakers doing the same job. They have computer
 BK>  controls, as do a lot of modern factories. Look at the local JR
 BK>  college or tech school requirements for an Associates degree in
 BK>  the various mechanical and electrical and electronic
 BK>  technologies. Our apprenticeship programs require *MORE*
 BK>  academic training and shop training than those degrees. And auto 
 BK> makers programs are rated just as high.

 BK>>>  Bottom level pay is about $14/hr. I haven't found a breakdown of 
 BK>>> all the levels.

 BK>>>  Total labor cost is about $55/hr for GM, $49/hr for Toyota and
 BK>>>  Honda. From what I have read GMs cost will drop over the term of 
 BK>>> the contract. Adjusted for inflation.

 BA>> That includes the benefits paid to retired workers and the
 BA>> families of retired workers?  I don't think so.  Health

 BK>  We were talking about the pay of workers, not former workers.
 BK>  Pensions are out of a pension fund, not current cash flow.
 BK>  Medical benefits have been moved to a similar fund.

And both of those funds get their money from current (and future) cash flow.

 BK>  The only real problem is the lack of a real national health care 
 BK> plan to pick up the difference. All Americans should have full 
 BK> health coverage, which would eliminate the health benefits  problem
 BK> for all employers.

Oh baloney, Bob.  You keep harping on nationalizing the health care system
as if that were a good thing.  The only thing nationalizing the health care
system will accomplish is the destruction of quality health care in this
country (and vastly improving it along the US border in Mexico, Bermuda,
the Caribbean islands and probably Canada).  You'll also see the best and
brightest choosing careers other than medicine; heck, for years physicians
have been advising their children *not* to go into medicine.

You're also inconsistent.  You want to have the government take over the health
care system but you don't demand that the government *also* take over the food
production and distribution system.  After all, food is much more necessary to
continued existence than is health care.

 BA>> care benefits alone for GM amounted to over $1,300 of the
 BA>> price of every vehicle GM made - and that was several years
 BA>> ago, it's probably more than that now.

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