23 May 09 04:41, Bob Ackley wrote to Bob Klahn:

 BA> Replying to a message of Bob Klahn to Bob Ackley:

 BK>>>>>>  After all, since the american auto makers
don't pay that much
 BK>>>>>>  less than Toyota, The idea that the American
auto workers are
 BK>>>>>>  the problem is nonsense.

 BA>>>>> Forty bucks an hour plus benefits for what is basically
 BA>>>>> unskilled labor is not nonsense.  Receiving full or nearly

 BK>>>>  Yes, it is, since that is not what unskilled workers get.

 BA>>> It certainly is.  Auto workers are basically unskilled
 BA>>> labor and they make more than the mechanics that have to
 BA>>> fix their mistakes.

 BK>>  Bob, you are ignoring the facts, even when they are in front of
 BK>>  your face. I gave you the highest rate, $32.83/hr. And unskilled
 BK>> beginners go as low as $14/hr.

 BK>>>> Oh,
 BK>>>>  while we are at it, why would any salary for unskilled work, no
 BK>>>>  matter how high, be objectionable. Remember, the law of supply
 BK>>>>  and demand does *NOT* have anything in it to say how skilled the
 BK>>>> labor is, only on what it takes to hire people to do it. Would
 BK>>>> you want to do factory work for $10 or $15/hr?

 BA>>> Depends.

 BK>>  IOW, a non-answer. Why do you think the law of supply and demand
 BK>> should be repealed?

 BK>>>>  Since Toyota's *average* hourly pay is within a few dollars of
 BK>>>>  the American automakers, it must not be too high. It most
 BK>>>>  certainly is not $40/hr. Not even for skilled workers.

 BK>>>>  I just looked it up. Current top pay is $32.83/hr. That's top
 BK>>>>  skilled labor.

 BA>>> UAW ain't skilled labor.

 BK>>  Bob, you just displayed ignorance of the reality of factory
 BK>>  work. You see those videos of foreign factories with robotics,
 BK>>  well they have that in American plants also.

 BK>>  Major auto company UAW milwrights, machinists, tool and die
 BK>>  makers, electricians, and machine repairmen are top of the line.
 BK>> And machine repairmen are not just mechanics, but highly skilled
 BK>> level of machine repair.

 BA> None of those skilled *crafts* are assembling automobiles.  I also
 BA> suspect that none of those skilled *craftsmen* are UAW members, those
 BA> *crafts* have their own unions.

In fact, milwrights, machinists, T&D makers and machine repairmen have
their own union called the IAM...International Association of Machinists.
That's also true in aircraft manufacturing plants.

 BK>>  A factory is not all assemblers and machine operators, every
 BK>>  machine out there needs to be maintained. And that is done by
 BK>>  maintenance personel in house. One of my former co-workers went
 BK>>  to one of the automakers doing the same job. They have computer
 BK>>  controls, as do a lot of modern factories. Look at the local JR
 BK>>  college or tech school requirements for an Associates degree in
 BK>>  the various mechanical and electrical and electronic
 BK>>  technologies. Our apprenticeship programs require *MORE*
 BK>>  academic training and shop training than those degrees. And auto
 BK>> makers programs are rated just as high.

 BK>>>>  Bottom level pay is about $14/hr. I haven't found a breakdown of
 BK>>>> all the levels.

 BK>>>>  Total labor cost is about $55/hr for GM, $49/hr for Toyota and
 BK>>>>  Honda. From what I have read GMs cost will drop over the term of
 BK>>>> the contract. Adjusted for inflation.

 BA>>> That includes the benefits paid to retired workers and the
 BA>>> families of retired workers?  I don't think so.  Health

 BK>>  We were talking about the pay of workers, not former workers.
 BK>>  Pensions are out of a pension fund, not current cash flow.
 BK>>  Medical benefits have been moved to a similar fund.

 BA> And both of those funds get their money from current (and future)
 BA> cash flow.

 BK>>  The only real problem is the lack of a real national health care
 BK>> plan to pick up the difference. All Americans should have full
 BK>> health coverage, which would eliminate the health benefits  problem
 BK>> for all employers.

 BA> Oh baloney, Bob.  You keep harping on nationalizing the health care
 BA> system as if that were a good thing.  The only thing nationalizing
 BA> the health care system will accomplish is the destruction of quality
 BA> health care in this country (and vastly improving it along the US
 BA> border in Mexico, Bermuda, the Caribbean islands and probably
 BA> Canada).  You'll also see the best and brightest choosing careers
 BA> other than medicine; heck, for years physicians have been advising
 BA> their children *not* to go into medicine.

 BA> You're also inconsistent.  You want to have the government take over
 BA> the health care system but you don't demand that the government
 BA> *also* take over the food production and distribution system.  After
 BA> all, food is much more necessary to continued existence than is
 BA> health care.

 BA>>> care benefits alone for GM amounted to over $1,300 of the
 BA>>> price of every vehicle GM made - and that was several years
 BA>>> ago, it's probably more than that now.

 BA> --- FleetStreet 1.19+


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