Rod, at 15:07 on Jun 03 1995, you wrote to Bill Grimsley...

BG> my main concern is with his pronunciation and elocution. After a few weeks 
BG> of making him verbally repeat any word from which he drop the final 
BG> letter(s) (*ing is the worst, as you'd expect),

RS> Be fascinating to know what he thinks of having to do that |-)

Who gives a fuck what he thinks?  He's just a bratty teenager.  All I know
is that it works (for a while anyway).

BG> all is well until he spends a weekend in Toowoomba with his dole-bludging 
BG> moronic natural father, then the whole cycle repeats itself.  So much for 
BG> learning by example...

FM> The learning is only as good as the example.

BG> Nothing wrong with the example being set _here_, I can assure you. 

RS> Yeah, but that change over the weekend is clearly learning by another 
RS> example. Which was Franks point.

Yeah, I realise that, but he spends fewer than 2 days a month with his
father, yet comes back with all of the bad habits that took us the other 28
days to eradicate.  It'd be easier to train a fucking chimpanzee IMO.

BG> I'm more concerned with his inability to retain what he
BG> learns (in which case, "learn" is inaccurate).  It pisses
BG> me off no end that he's quite capable of reciting the words
BG> to most songs, and even fucking TV commercials, yet STILL
BG> hasn't bothered learning his 12X table by rote.

RS> Maybe the first stuff is just automatic, no effort required.

Yoy hear or read something often enough, you learn it.  That's what
"learning by rote" means.  Nothing to do with effort at all.

RS> Presumably he cant see the point in the 12X and he is right too.

Bullshit, he (and you) are dead fucking wrong about that, and if you can't
see that, there's no point arguing with you.  Read the next bit again...

BG> He failed Maths last year (indeed, all subjects) given the
BG> ridiculous method of scoring used in Qld schools these days.
BG> No marks per se, just five levels of accomplishment, and
BG> Robert scored level 4 with all subjects.  Very disappointing,
BG> even from a non-biological parent's POV.

RS> Yeah.

Yeah indeed!  He failed maths BECAUSE he didn't learn the fucking basics
when he should have.  Can you imagine anybody gaining an electrical
engineering degree without first learning and understanding Ohm's Law?  I
sure can't.

BG> Even worse, it's simply extreme laziness on his part.

RS> Nope.

Thanks for the 1500km-distant diagnosis Rod, but as somebody who lives with
the boy, if I tell you that he's a lazy little shit, believe it!

BG> very much in keeping with my own observation that the
BG> majority of local school kids are simply lazy little shits.

FM> No doubt you're right,

BG> I'd hoped not, but do you have any other valid explanation?  I don't.

FM> Yes. Your learning by example example above.

So he's lazy.  He only learns what HE wants to learn.

BG> Dunno, I'd have hoped he would respect our examples considerably
BG> more than those of his peers, but it would appear not.

RS> Its an unusual teenager who does. Thats what teenagers do mostly.

Yeah, I know.  I was a teenager once, in case you've forgotten.

FM> No social pressure to do so.

BG> True, only parental pressure, FWIW (which, it seems, is SFA these days).

RS> And which they have an almost automatic tendency to do the exact opposite.

So whose fault is that then?  It sure ain't ours.

FM> Positive peer pressure *not* to do so.

BG> You mean the typical "rebellious teenager" stuff?

RS> Nope, the other kids. That is actually one of the most powerful
RS> effects, they dont value the stuff you declaim is desirable.

Then they lack respect for their parents and their opinions.

RS> Positive peer pressure to NOT do what you want done.

I can see that, but don't really understand why.  Never will either.

FM> Perceived irrelevance (Rod's argument).

BG> Despite typically knowing absolutely everything at age 15, I still doubt 
BG> they're old enough to make an informed opinion either way myself.

RS> You've missed the 'perceived' bit. THEY see it as irrelevant.
RS> Thats a completely seperate question to whether it is irrelevant.
RS> Yes, they certainly arent old enough to make an informed opinion
RS> either way, but they make an opinion anyway. Everyone does.

Oh well, at least I can be thankful that you didn't start going on about
the "pressures of modern society", and all that psychological
bullshit.

RS> And they are right too on spelling anyway |-)

Nope, and you'll never convince me otherwise.

FM> Current education philosophies.

BG> Another sore point.

FM> Individual teacher incompetence within the education system.

BG> Another VERY sore point.

FM> Cultural corruption (your TV comment below).

BG> IMO, one of the biggest problems of all.

RS> I keep getting this vivid mental image of ancient greeks sitting
RS> around in their sheets raving on the same way, 2K years ago |-)

Quite likely too.  BTW, is that 2000 years, or 2048 years?

FM> That's just off the top of my head. :-)

RS> He's right, there are heaps of factors involved. Just
RS> saying 'lazy little shits' isnt that productive.

Sure it's emotive, but then you don't have a teenage son who's laying all
this shit on YOU.  Keep your dog, you'll be much better off.  |-)

BG> Mind you, given the amount of TV being watched by kids these
BG> days, some of the grammatical blunders made by news copywriters
BG> (and compounded by their readers) are disgusting (as my hero,
BG> Stuart Littlemore, so frequently and pungently points out).

FM> And pompously.

RS> Yeah, I agree with Frank, particularly on the political correctness stuff, 
RS> he really does go completely over the top on that stuff.

Sure, no argument with that at all, but he still does it so well.  |-)

RS> I value the bits where he shows up the media for blatant dishonesty and 
RS> straight out fraud, but so much of its just Stew holding his nose about 
RS> irrelevant crap.

Sure, but he's a public figure, and has a bigger ego to feed.  I don't
agree with everything that he says either, but I still respect his right to
express that opinion, regardless.  And unlike most, he's far more often
right than wrong anyway.

RS> And when he pontificates on stuff like he did on the fact that
RS> there should be no Foreign Correspondent, that stuff should
RS> all be in 4 Corners or the 7:30 Report, IMO he is just plain wrong.

Agreed, but that's just one man's opinion.  It's also worth no less than
yours or mine.  |-)

RS> Ditto for his pontification that Aust doesnt need anything other than free 
RS> to air TV.

He's possibly right.  We don't NEED it at all.  The funny thing about pay
TV is that its subscribers will be lining some rich cunts' pockets, in
order to watch the same stuff that they can see right now for free.  Fuck
'em, I say.

FM> He's not lily-white you know.

BG> No, but he's generally near enough IMO.

RS> What happened on that 7:30 Report segment that shafted him ?

Dunno, I don't watch it much any more, ever since that red-headed wanker
started fronting our local edition.  What a total fuckwit he is.

RS> I was on the phone at the time, just had the screen on, no
RS> sound, and didnt have a blank tape handy and so missed it.

Damn, wish I'd seen it too.

RS> He certainly didnt look that thrilled at being shafted |-)

Don't worry, he has a long memory, and will seize the moment...  :)

FM> Nevertheless I too like Media Watch.

BG> I do have one major complaint, now that you mention it.
BG> 15 minutes is nowhere near long enough to stick it up
BG> the tabloid media, but IMO he still does an admirable
BG> job in the minimal (not minuscule :)) time allotted.

RS> Dunno, I think there is too much crap. Like the current
RS> 'egregious tautology' stuff.

Yeah, I thought that might get up your nose a bit.  |-)

RS> He also falls into the classic trap that all those language
RS> thought police do, confusing changing style with error.

Of course, there's not the slightest possibility that he does actually have
a point, is there?  I look upon the English language as a very powerful
tool, and I don't normally abuse my tools (Bob, you stay right away from
that!), and those who do so are simply showing their own pig-ignorance IMO.

Regards, Bill
@EOT:

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