Quotes are taken from a message written by Rick to Charles on 07/09/96...
RP>CB> I don't often disagree with you on matters educational, but on this
RP>CB> one  I'm of a different mind.  Who needs to write programs today,
RP>CB> especially  in BASIC or LOGO?
RP>
RP>Uh, how about programmers?
What's your point?  As I said - no one *needs* to write programs today - 
the operating commands are not so totally integrated with the 
programming language, as in the early TRS machines, that one needs to 
have some basic understanding of computer "programming", nor is software 
in short supply and difficult to come by.  We do not need to teach 
programming in order to teach the basic operation of the machine, as we 
once did - and programming makes up but a small percentage of computer 
usage today.
In our middle school and high school combined, we have about 150 
computers, with more on the way.  We have about 150 staff members using 
those computers and fewer than 5 of us can do more than use software 
right out of the box - we hire technicians and technology teachers to 
modify the software (if it needs it) and to manage the operating system.
RP> Are you of the opinion that hardly anyone programs for a living, so 
RP>it isn't worthwhile teaching it to students?
No - I am of the mind that only a small percentage of computer users 
program professionaly.  I think that the limited amount of time we have 
to teach 6th graders to use computers is better spent in teaching them 
to utilize applications (word processing, some basic publishing, 
spreadsheets, databases, connecting to the Internet, etc.)  These are 
skills that the students can use throughout the rest of their years in 
school and which will translate into job skills that are far more likely 
to be important than programming skills.  There is time enough for those 
who wish to learn to program to take electives in high school or college.
Having taught computer literacy courses (including some BASIC and LOGO 
programming) to middle school kids since the early 80's, I am familiar 
with the fact that some of the kids at that age are computer junkies and 
want to learn everything they can about computers.  I am also aware that 
there are many others who could care less, or who are downright 
computer-phobic, who *hate* programming.  To what purpose do we force 
them to do it?  I think at that level, if some students wish, a computer 
club or mini-course on programming would be more than sufficient.  But 
that's just my take on the issue, based on my experiences.
RP>And BTW, Visual Basic outsells every other Windows programming language,
RP>including C++ and Delphi. Moreover, since a subset of VB is embedded
RP>in most MS Windows Office applications as a replacement for the old
RP>system of "macros", every application user becomes a de facto programmer
RP>to some degree, whenever he needs to extend an application beyond its
RP>built-in, off-the-shelf capabilities. Lastly, take a look at some
RP>source code from PowerBuilder, CA Visualizer, and a host of other
RP>"database" languages sometime. It may not say "BASIC" on the box, but
RP>the source sure looks like BASIC.
And you think there is some reason to teach all off this to 11-year-old kids?
RP>CB> Perhaps for students with a particular interest in computers, such as
RP>CB> those in a computer club or special activity group, teaching
RP>CB> programming  would be beneficial.  However, based on my own 
xperience,
RP>CB> most of the  5th and 6th grade kids really didn't care for 
rogramming.
RP>
RP>Sure, it _should_ be an elective if offered as an entire course. But
RP>it should also be _encouraged_.
I understand, from your perspective as someone who programs 
professionaly, that the issue is important.  It is far less important to 
others who use computers yet use them effectively every day.
RP>Do you tell your kids "Who needs to write programs today"? If so, 
RP>you're doing them a disservice IMO.
No.  Do you tell your students that the only people who can use a 
computer effectively are those who program?  If so, I think you do 
*them* a disservice.
Chuck Beams
Fidonet - 1:2608/70
cbeams@future.dreamscape.com
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