TR> CH>First off Tim I don't think they are 'forced'.

 TR> They most certainly *are* `forced'.

In the sense of method yes, but the victim does not realize this until
she learns of other ways. Not allowed to choose, yes she realizes
she's being forced to accept the way she was unfortunately born into.
,,,,,,,,,,

 TR> They have forms of mass media in those countries, there are also
 TR> printed publications from foreign lands. Just how much `in the dark'
 TR> could they be?

 Sure they do. Mass propaganda. Some outside news does leak in though.
They do get SOME TV over there and some clever folks can get the BBC
say.. or other free world media sources.

I agree with you though Tim. Some women simply choose to stay the way
they're used to no matter how banal it is. It's familiar thus
'secure'. Safer than the unknown. It's human nature y'know? :( You've
read about how SOME children will, out of fear of the unknown, will
cling to an abusive parent?? Sorry I don't want to get into psychology
but this phenomena has been well documented. Surely you've read of it?
     
 TR> CH>Only when they
 TR> CH>learn about how women of the West live THEN they either continue to
 TR> CH>accept their lot or rebel.

 TR> Are you aware that women in Muslim countries who appear in public
 TR> dressed in any way *but* the prescribed religious way dictated by the
 TR> Muslims, are grabbed and `beaten' with cane whips?

 Yep. Under the Taliban especially. But aren't they a tad freer in
Iran? I'm not sure on this but an article read in The Guardian awhile
ago had it that Iran is enjoying many of the trappings of Western
Culture though at the same time Hating (the US version) of
"Democracy". Sort of they like our toys but now our capitalism. Yes
that sounds kinda contradictory but then that's how most people are!
Aren't they?
            
 TR> What would your husband think if you were to come home with welts all
 TR> over you from having been tied down and beaten with a cane whip,
 TR> b ecause of how you were dressed in public?

 He'd be very angry. Someone sent around in email awhile ago what was
supposed to be a POlish AD (a movie file). We don't know if it was a
joke or what. IT was all in Polish.

It showed a young couple coming across a little foot bridge. Another
young couple comes onto the bridge. The husband of the second couple
accidentals bumps the wife of the first. The husband of the first
couple- pushes the wife of the second couple in response. The second
husband pushes the first husband's wife. This continues until the
wives are doubled over severely beaten.

Next scene and at night. The bridge is lit. You see the first young
couple approach the foot bridge. The wife is heavily bandaged, her arm
in a sling, toddling along behind her husband. Another couple happens
by. The husband a big burly guy. When he accidentals brushed against
the first (battered wife and started to apologize to her, before th
fuckhead husband could act she ran off. The burly guy and his gal
proceeded on shaking their heads. The fuckhead husband looks off at
his departing wife, shaking his head as if she were nuts or something.

We don't know if this was  meant as a joke but I got the impression
the women simply submitted to the male behavior! They didn't fight
back nor did they flee. Maybe that was the message. I don't know. We
couldn't translate the Polish.

But the point is unless women or any 'minority' stand up for
themselves-= they'll be forever trod upon. That's how it is.
          
 TR> How would you like to live under a system like that?

No way! But Tim. If I didn't know any other system? Well then but
then...let's perish the thought. I've a feeling though I'd somehow
know that way was bad and resist it. There are women in Muslim
countries fighting Fundie Fell clutches. Secret schools fore example
and oh other subtle ways. They don't, after all, have a bottomless pit
(taxpayer money that is) to fight a 'war' with.

....................
 TR> It isn't a question of "succumb to acceptance", its a question of
 TR> being `forced', under threat of immediate public punishment with a
 TR> cane whip, without hearing, without trial, without any representation
 TR> by a lawyer.


 Nod. I agree with you. The thing about that 'succumb' though hmmm
it's at tricky world. A woman would have to know different or feel
forced for her to 'succumb' . The word I think comes in use for those
of us who KNOW she's being mistreated. She of course has been
brainwashed to accept it. (Deserving it that is.)
............

 TR> CH>The issue isn't how people live Tim. The issue is CHOICE.
 TR> CH>Fundamentalists of every stripe provide only one choice in
 TR> anything: CH>Theirs.


 TR> Thats untrue. The `Fred Phelps' types in the West only have control
 TR> over those who elect to live under their rules and influence.

 Some people CHOOSE to be controlled Tim because they know no
other way. They're taught to fear thinking for themselves so yeah I
guess they sort of 'choose' because they believe they have no OTHER c
choice. Sorry if I'm being redundant. It's tricky. The choice thing
you know? Even not making a choice is a choice. It gets weirder.
...............

 TR> Nobody `forces' women here in the West to adhere to repressive, 12th
 TR> century religious behavioral codes.

 True.

 TR> You have the choice of staying `out' of their churches; belonging to a
 TR> church that has far `different' policies and behavioral codes; `not

Sure less stringent. Still stringy but less so. More subtle.
          
TR> If you were looking for some sort of help from me on that, you came to
TR> the wrong place. I am unaware of what Senator represents one state and
TR> lives in another.
 
 TR> CH>I wasn't. Doesn't matter. Ross S answered.


 TR> You and I are talking about the freedom of women and womens'
 TR> organizations not coming out strongly about the repression of women
 TR> under Muslim governments.

 Nod. I think the only effectual way to bring down oppressive
governments if from within the government itself. Outside influence,
especially UNINVITED influence- seldom brings about anything but a lot
of bloodshed and nothing more than a change from one oppressor to
another.


TR> Sauer is unimportant.

The same could be said of you y'know? Petty stuff. Your opinion.
A personal slam. You are baiting him. OH fun fun fun.
Clap clap clap! Bravo! But no. Puts me to sleep. Same old same old.

TR> If you were trying some smarmy little stab at me with a barb over some
 
 TR> CH>Now just why would you think that? We're you hoping for a flame
 TR> war?

 TR> *You* seem to be "hoping for a flame war"....

 Only in your mind. Wishful thinking Tim?

Come on you should know better by now. I know you're all starved to
death over there in flame echos. You come here looking for something
to prattle on about for months on end. Sorry I'm not going to help you.
You all will have to be content to continue with your creative writing
practice instead. 

Cindy


... 'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre & gimble.

--- PPoint 3.01