Quotes are taken from a message written by Steve to Charles on 08/04/96...
SA>CB> However, the thrust  of this discussion has actually 
SA>CB> been about the inclusion of programming instruction in 
SA>CB> a 6th grade computer literacy course.  
SA>
SA>It should replace foreign language.
I have heard of colleges offering programming as an alternative to 
foreign language instruction, but I've not heard of similar options at 
the K-12 level.  Here in New York all students are required to take two 
years of foreign language by the end of grade nine and programming is 
NOT an acceptable replacement.  Are you aware of any middle schools/high 
schools offering this as an option?
SA>CB> If that's the way he said it, then indeed that is an ignorant 
SA>CB> assumption, but you show your own bias in the following statement...
SA>
SA>SA> Having a BS in Computer Science, I was totally floored.
SA>
SA>So, understanding true computer science makes my argument biased and 
somehow 
SA>unacceptable?  Can't a math teacher argue the benefits if 
SA>math?
You do not read my statements literally, do you?   At no time did I 
say that your argument was unacceptable - only that it was biased.  And 
I have no problem with agreeing to the fact that most math teachers 
will be biased about the amount of time THEIR subject receives in a 
school program.  The difference really lies with those who are NOT 
biased - i.e, the general non-teaching public.  At this time I think 
most of them would argue that being bilingual in a shrinking world is 
of some value, but programming for the general public is simply not as 
relevant and should be a course of study left up to individuals who are 
interested.
SA>Use of applications has NOTHING to do with programming.  
SA>EVERY non computer class should be teaching applications 
SA>not computer science classes.
I guess it Was Rick Pedley who argued that even people using 
applications can only use them effectively if they can program them.  My 
mistake - I thought you were in agreement with that.
SA>Are bot degrees required to teach other fields?  Why cast 
SA>off those that have Computer Science degrees?  WHy would 
SA>they be scared off?
I'm NOT trying to cast them off - I think there is definitely a need for 
specialists.  This year our district will be hiring a half-time, 
certified computer technician to manage our hardware and networks.  I 
was curious as to how you envisioned the role of the certified 
computer teacher - and you now mention Computer Science.  At what levels 
do you think we should teach this topic?
SA>Why are you suggesting this thought at all? That would be totally idiotic.
Well, you know me - just an idiot...
Perhaps it was because, in your first post, you didn't specify the role 
you envisioned for the certified computer teacher and I was fishing for 
more information.  I wasn't being sarcastic or challenging - I was just 
describing where MY thoughts were going.
You continue to write very emotionally about this topic, characterizing 
me and my ideas as foolish (previous message) and now idiotic.  I REALLY 
wish you would argue the issues and not characterize them or me.  Please?
SA>CB> I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I'd wager that that a 
SA>CB> significant portion (75% or more) of jobs done on computers across 
this 
SA>CB> nation on a daily basis are done at just that level.  
SA>
SA>This is the type of thinking that keeps computers in the 
SA>sterile environment of the computer lab.
I don't understand your comment here at all.  How so?  My personal 
opinion is that just the opposite would be true.  If we can make more 
people comfortable with using computers, without giving them cause to 
fear that they have to learn to program just to type a letter to 
Grandma, then computers will come OUT of the lab.
SA>CB> Programming is not required in order for the average end-user to be 
SA>CB> proficient with a computer.
SA>
SA>If all you want to turn out in your school are "average end-
SA>users" then why teach marketing, statistics, any of the 
SA>sciences or history?  Average end users don't know how to 
SA>think.
I don't know how your schools work, but ours require that students take 
only enough math, science and history to be average end-users.  Only 
those with a significant interest in and/or talent for mathematics, for 
example, are required to take advanced courses such as trig and 
calculus.  I see the same sort of thing for computers - teach enough to 
everyone to make them proficient with the simple stuff, but allow those 
who wish to learn more to select electives.
SA>Knitting is programming....
I don't see the parallel - can you explain how you think they are the same?
SA>Daily planning is programming.
I must admit, words seem to be getting in our way - I did NOT envision 
daily planning as computer programming.  I had assumed our discussion 
was about using LOGO, BASIC or Pascal to write step-by-step instructions 
so as to get a computer to perform in a pre-determined manner.  If, 
indeed, we are talking about teaching children to develop a daily plan 
for their activities, then I've been teaching it for 27 years.
SA>Organized thought is programming. 
I don't think so.
SA>The computer is becoming as common as a telephone, 
SA>television or use of a car. Don't you think that these are 
SA>of value too?
As I understand it, only about 20% of all American homes have computers 
in them.  Even if we argue that all of those computers are being used, I 
doubt that we could argue that computers are as common as telephones 
which are in probably over 90% of all U.S. households.  Nor, do I 
believe, could you argue that anyone with the knowledge to use a 
telephone also has the knowledge to use a computer.
SA>CB> As I said, I've seen many students who are simply turned off by the 
SA>CB> "logic, orderly thinking, refined argument and creativity" that you 
SA>CB> enjoy.  
SA>
SA>Only if the instructors are still fording the chalk board style of 
teaching.
Oh, baloney!  I'm tired of being accused of being an inadequate teacher, 
even if indirectly, just because my view on programming differs from 
yours.  Rick Pedley tried to pull the same argument and it is nothing 
more than a cheap shot by someone who has not provided a single shred of 
documentation or evidence to prove your point.  I'm a highly respected 
teacher with 27 years of experience and can point to 5 or 6 years of 
on-the-job experience, even if it is anecdotal in nature, to backup my 
views.  If you REALLY want to change my mind, go find some evidence that 
schools that mandate instruction in computer programming in the middle 
school produce an inordinate number of programmers as those children 
graduate to adulthood.
SA>Only if you are going to make it as boring as possible.  It 
SA>seems that that is the only way you see it.
Baloney again.  Why not insult me again to prove your point?  For 
someone who seems to be so logical, it appears to me that the only way 
you think you can win this argument is to attack me personally.  How 
could you possibly know if I am a good teacher or not?
SA>Foreign languages are more of a waste of time, students are forced into
SA>those.
Perhaps you are right, but virtually every first world nation on earth 
requires their children to take a foreign language in school - and most 
do it MUCH better than the U.S.
P.S.  If I get any more messages from you as loaded with personal 
attacks as the last two have been, I will communicate with you no 
further.  Either learn to argue the issues, or go away.
Chuck
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* UniQWK #5290* A friend in need is a pest indeed...
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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