Hello George,

GP> SA> LAW AND GRACE, WORKS  AND CHRIST
GP> SA>
GP> SA> What is the relationship of law to grace and how do we reconcile the
GP> SA> commands in the OT law with grace. So many say the grace is there to
GP> SA> keep the law, but the bible states in the NT that if you fail to keep
GP> SA> one of the laws you have broken them all. This is the very reason we
GP> SA> are under grace. In the OT there was grace under the surface of the
GP> SA> law in the NT grace rules over the law. If you failed in one of the
GP> SA> commands the way it was dealt with was by sacrifice. The NT we are not
GP> SA> under grace to keep the law of the OT because the scripture makes it
GP> SA> clear no one can. It is Jesus who kept the law where we could not he
GP> SA> kept it absolutely perfectly. Every requirement small or large was
GP> SA> kept in the absolute way God required it of man. So Christ lived a
GP> SA> perfect righteous life even to the point of his death on the cross.

GP>Are you seriously trying to deny Christ's own words that say not only
GP>must you not murder, but you must not even BE UNRIGHTEOUSLY ANGRY???

Peter was a hothead, getting in bar fights and killing at least two
people.  And Paul hated Christians, to the point of murdering thousands
of them.

GP>And Peter, Paul, and the rest of the post-crucifixion apostles, who
GP>agreed that three laws remain in effect for all Christians:
GP>-not to murder

Oh, well.  I guess both Peter and Paul have gone to Hell.

GP>-not to commit adultery

Some folks say Peter was married.  And quite a womanizer.
Some folks say Paul was gay, and had a problem with women.

GP>-not to commit cruelty to animals ("abstain from blood" refers to the
GP>Noachide prohibition of tearing a limb from a living animal, and other
GP>laws regarding respect of animal life, in not eating the life's blood,
GP>and of burying the blood)

I guess that means all Cajuns are going to Hell, given some of the foods
we eat.

>SA>So many do good works because they think it is demanded of them,
>SA>instead of it flowing out of natural lifestyle of faith.

GP>When it comes to murder or not murder, it IS demanded of you!

Peter killed at least two men.  Paul killed thousands of men, women
and children.  And yet, both are considered saints.

>SA>The old covenant was for the Jews only. For one to be under the Old
>SA>covenant they need to convert to Judaism. In the new covenant, it is
>SA>for both Jews and gentiles. In Eph.2 when we believe in Christ we
>SA>becomes part of the body of Christ, not Judaism. God made a whole new
>SA>entity called the church, the body of Christ, and filled it with his
>SA>spirit to operate in his ways.

GP>The Jews were given their own covenant that included parts of the
GP>universal covenant of law. . .
GP>But the commandments given to Noah were incumbent, through God's
GP>sovereign authority, on Noah, and all his seed(ie. everybody) as the
GP>bare minimum for moral/etc. life.

The first three commandments are what we owe God.  The next seven
commandments deal with man's relationship with his fellow man.  Jesus
put things in a more succinct manner, citing two commandments - love
God, and love your neighbor as yourself.  If you love God, you will
love your neighbor.  And you already love yourself.  IOW, Jesus was
citing the entire ten commandments in summation.  However, Jesus said
that was not enough.  There was one other thing one must do.  "Come,
follow me."  I'll let you figure out what He meant by that.

>SA>Hebrews 8:6, "But now hath He (Jesus) obtained a more excellent
>SA>ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a "Better Covenant,
>SA>which was established upon "Better" Promises". The
new covenant is Not
>SA>a covenant of works but rest in his work. By it all the Body of Christ
>SA>' is not under of the condemning ministry of the law (2 Cor. 3:9; Rom.
>SA>8:1-2 there is no condemnation), since believers are not under the law
>SA>they are beyond its grasp to condemn.(Rom. 3:19).

GP>so again, you interpret this to mean that it's permissible for
GP>Christians to commit murder & adultery?

Everything is permissable under the sun.  Doesn't make it right, but
it is permissable.

GP>And this sounds like something that fits in with who God is?
GP>This also sounds to you like something Jesus preached/exemplified?

"Love one another, as I have loved you."
- Jesus, citing The 11th Commandment

>SA>Paul states in Rom. 6:14..." for you are not under law but under
>SA>grace." He also makes it clear in Gal. 5:18 "if you are
led by the
>SA>Spirit, you are not under the law."  The previous verses
state "so
>SA>that you do not do the things that you wish." The Law is not given to
>SA>the Christian as the standard to live by, but to show the unbeliever
>SA>how below the standard we do live, as Paul states in 1 Tim.1:9 The Law
>SA>is for the unrighteous.

GP>He wasn't addressing murderers, adulterers, etc., but perhaps FORMER all
GP>those. . .

Paul addressed EVERYONE, especially sinners.

GP>He was addressing those who had sincerely been born again and whose
GP>lives no longer included such things -- later in the Christian Bible, he
GP>and others make it clear that those who murder,lie, cheat, steal,
GP>fornicate, etc., are clearly NOT members of the [re]new[ed] Covenant!

Paul addressed Jews, Christians, Greeks, Romans, atheists, you name it.

>SA>In the dispensation of grace, "the law is not of
faith." Today faith
>SA>and law are mutually exclusive. In Israel's dispensation of law, faith
>SA>and law were equally beneficial, one needed both (Rom. 10:5-6,

GP>The Hebrew faith is not like the Roman Catholic "faith" or even the
GP>Protestant one. . .

Martin Luther used the Jewish version of the OT which was put together
by the council of Jamnia so that he could distance himself from the
Catholic version of Scripture.  The Jews who took part in the council
of Jamnia took out portions of the OT they disagreed with, and changed
other portions, so as to sully Christian beliefs.

GP>The Hebrew faith refers to "trust based on eyewitness knowledge"
GP>In this respect, the epistles speak of faith in the same way, because
GP>their audience were witness to Jesus' life et al!

Who did Jesus cite as His authority?  What rabbi, or rabbinical school
of thought?  Or did He make everything up, all on His own?

>SA>Righteousness we need cannot come from the Law. For the law demands
>SA>perfect obedience.

GP>This would be the law that Jesus himself said would not pass away, not a
GP>"jot or tittle" any time before the end of the universe?

IOW, Jesus was saying He would be with us always, even unto the End of
the World.  Of course, God's time is Eternal, not limited to human time.
>>> Continued to next message

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