LP>> I don't agree with your logic. I do not profess to be a medical
 LP>> doctor, therefore any opinion I offer as to a child's possible
 LP>> condition can be only that:  opinion.
 BM>  You seem to be overlooking that the opinion you would be expressing
 BM>  is that the child has a medical condition.  There are several
 BM>  disorders with symptoms very similar to ADD/ADHD; are you familiar
 BM>  enough with all of those to be able to rule them out?
No, I'm not & that is why descriptive phrases like "hyperactive" (which
means "overly or abnormally active") or "short attention span" can help
determine what should be done for the child.  There is a difference.
You can call it semantics if you like, but semantics are the basis of
many a frivolous lawsuit.
 LP>> What this woman was saying to me was that I cannot say the words
 LP>> "hyperactive," "short attention span," or "you should take the
 LP>> child to be assessed."
 BM>  Again, she was right; no teacher without a medical credential is
 BM>  qualified to label any child with those words - and make no mistake -
 BM>  it is labeling them if you say your child is "hyperactive" or "you
 BM>  should take the child to be assessed".  That last phrase will raise
In your opinion.
 BM>  the hackles on any parents back; do you really imagine they don't
Not always.  Maybe just yours, Bob.  I've had parents at conferences for
years & the only ones who had raised hackles were the parents of two
regular ed kids.
One, who had shouted "Dumbass" while entering the room, told her parents
I gave her an assertive discipline check because she said "democrat," &
insisted that little Miss Sweetness could not have done or said anything
of the sort & what did I have against democrats.  The other was failing
his third year straight of French 1 & his mother claimed _I_ was to
blame for all his failure (funny, he had another French teacher the
first 2 tries at it.)
 BM>  already know their child has a problem?  How do you know they
 BM>  aren't already in the evaluation process?
You wouldn't believe HOW MANY parents don't know, won't acknowledge or
can't accept that their child has a problem.  We had one in particular
last year whose mother chose to blame the entire school for her
daughter's out-of-control behavior.  The girl set fire to a classroom
before mom would stop yelling about racists & discrimination; of course,
this was after several referrals for physical assaults on a handful of
students, general disruptive behavior in ALL her classes, & verbal
assaults on her teachers, as well as a police report for threats against
a staff member.
How do I know they aren't already in the evaluation process?  I don't,
but one would hope that a responsible parent who plans on helping his or
her student would let teachers know so that little more patience & or
understanding might be extended toward that child.  Otherwise, the
parent leaves the teacher in the dark, probably believing that the child
is a lout.
 LP>> I disagree with you that it's not a teacher's place to tell a
 LP>> parent that---it's nearly a duty to do so if the teacher observes
 LP>> a problem.
 BM>  I'll maintain that it is NOT a teacher's duty to relate observations
 BM>  in such terms; use the language of _your_ profession.  Yes it's
 BM>  semantics and yes you are saying the same thing but in a manner you are
 BM>  qualified to say it in.
Bob, I'm losing respect for you.  You are refusing to see that all I'm
advocating is a return for concern & care for the child; you are
focusing on worry that the parent('s') feelings might be hurt because
someone *might* be suggesting their child is less than perfect.
Semantics don't cut much ice with me, but since they seem to be
important to you, go back to the top & read my most recent comment.
 LP>> Am I supposed to ignore a student who is having trouble & wreaking
 LP>> havoc on the rest of the class?  I don't think so.
 BM>  Of course not, and I don't think so either.  But don't make the
 BM>  unwarranted leap that the kid needs to be assessed for ADD/ADHD
 BM>  because they are having trouble and "wreaking havoc".
Did I EVER say that?  I don't think so, I know I didn't.  I said that
the teacher should tell the parent that the student needs to be
assessed.  Period.  Never did I say that I would tell a parent to go
have a kid "assessed for ADD/ADHD."  You go back & post that quote if
you don't believe me.
I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth.
 LP>> Incidentally, once these kids are taking medication, the doctors are
 LP>> quite happy to send 'round questionnaires asking me to rate the
 LP>> child's behavior & describe symptoms.  So, how have I suddenly become
 LP>> qualified?
 BM>  That's backwards...those questionnaires are sent out BEFORE a
 BM>  diagnosis is made; you are being asked to describe behavior and
Baloney.  I've had 'em before, during the process & after, but most
recently, I've been given them on students who are already & have been
being medicated.  You are making an assumption.  Based on your comment
above, _you_ are speaking in terms of a medical professional because you
think you know how the system works.  I had to do four of them this
Spring.  All of them were for students who were currently taking
medication.  One was an evaluation of a change in prescription, one was
an "is the kid really taking her meds or is mom selling the pills on the
street"  & two were dosage adjustment issues.  From the doctors.
Before you say, "Leona, you stupid fool, you're gonna get sued for
prescribing without a medical license," please read what I wrote.  I
filled out evaluations that were for the **doctors'** use to determine
whether changes were needed.  _I_ didn't write "Yeah, up the dose.  Dope
that kid up." or "Whoa, Doc.  This kid's a zombie, better cut back a
bit."
 BM>  symptoms.  On every teacher questionnaire I've seen (and I've seen
 BM>  LOTS) there are questions directly related to academic performance.
So you've seen every teacher questionnaire?  I know, I know.  Cheap
shot.  Just throwing a few of them back at you.  They're cluttering up
the place. ;)
 BM>  You still are not qualified to make the diagnosis, you are being asked
 BM>  specific questions regarding the child's performance in the school
 BM>  environment.  You are being asked for your opinion as a professional
 BM>  EDUCATOR.
Maybe I see what you've got your panties in a bunch about now.  I think
you are mixing two things up here.  Hyperactivity is a condition.  It
*can* be a medical diagnosis.  Hyperactive is an adjective used to
describe behavior.  It is not a medical diagnosis.  If I can check a box
on a questionnaire from a doctor that says "Hyperactive or restless
behavior in classroom," but can't say that same phrase to a parent a
week before the doctor sends me that form because the parents can hold
me, the school, the universe liable for the student's treatment, then
the parent needs medication for "shoot the messenger syndrome."
 LP>> FWIW, students who refuse to wear glasses & are assigned preferential
 BM>  --bunch of unrelated stuff cut--
Why?  Vision is a medical condition.
 BM>>  Not the same thing at all; the kid can tell you she's got a headache
 LP>> Oh, the _kid_ is a medical doctor & can make that diagnosis?
 BM>  C'mon now that was a cheap shot
No, it wasn't.  You said that the teacher is put in a position of
relying on the student being able to tell the teacher s/he has a
headache.  My point is that I can observe symptoms of various
illnesses without having to rely on the student & my employer's little
nurse pass pad doesn't say "runny nose," "fever," "nausea."  It says
injury, cold, flu, stomach, conjunctivitis & has spaces for me to write
other stuff like pediculosis & menstrual cramps (for which I rely on the
students.)
 LP>> Honestly, Bob, I'm allowed to check off Cold, Flu, Sore Throat,
 LP>> Conjunctivitis & all sorts of conditions that are "diagnoses."  You're
 LP>> just belaboring the point.
 BM>  You wouldn't think that if you had ever been involved in, or had
 BM>  personal knowledge of, a case of parents bringing suit against a
 BM>  district and a teacher when the teacher repeatedly told the parents
 BM>  that their child was "hyperactive"; had a "short attention span",
 BM>  was "always disrupting the class" and was a trouble maker with no
 BM>  friends.
(I wouldn't, huh?  I'll tell you what I do think.  I think I know where
that child's unsociable behavior came from.)  I hope the teacher or the
district thought of countersuing the parents for failure to control
their darling.  I do agree that telling a parent that a student is "a
trouble maker with no friends" is not the most polite nor politic thing
to do; however, it's not the basis for a lawsuit.  I would hope that the
teacher has behavior documentation to back up whatever more tactful way
of expressing the idea of "trouble maker with no friends."
 LP>> Informing the parent the child needs to be tested is NOT by any
 LP>> stretch a medical diagnosis, nor does it make us any more liable for
 LP>> doctor bills than if the nurse sends home a note to get the parent
 LP>> to take the kid to the eye doctor.  SHE'S not a optometrist or an
 LP>> ophthalmologist yet she can form a professional opinion about the
 LP>> child's sight.
 BM>  You got it; she can form a "professional" medical opinion - she's got
 BM>  the license to do so .. you don't.  It's that simple.
How do you know what qualifications our school nurse, or any school
nurse for that matter, holds?  Last year, we had a woman who told me
when I asked for an aspirin that she "can give me tylenol because the
aspirin is for the kids."  Excuse me?  Had she never heard of Reye's
syndrome (sp)?  I wouldn't let her treat my cat.  This is a woman who
could be located during a school dance (our dances are during the school
day) to unlock the medicine cabinet (to which she holds the only key)
for an asthmatic student having an attack.
She further expected asthmatics having an attack to walk down from their
classroom to the administration building where her office is located so
they can use their inhalers (she couldn't be bothered to get off her
large posterior & take them their medication.)  When I was in school,
our nurse used to bring a wheelchair for injured or seriously ill
students.  This one only ever went out to the field once, to watch the
track & field events, not because anyone was hurt or might be hurt, just
to watch.
 LP>> In fact, we are told to assess ANY child's condition whether or not
 LP>> s/he complains about health & have even been directed by the nurse
 LP>> *not* to send them for specific symptoms.
 BM>  So what do you do, wait for the kid to fall out in your classroom?
Nooooooooo.  We refer them to the nurse &/or the parents.  I have called
parents directly when the nurse has not acted on a referral.
 BM>  Your nurse is telling you to make medical assessments and you are
 BM>  okay with this?
Yes, she does, but did I say that I follow what she says?  No.  You
assumed it.  If a kid tells me s/he's sick & behaves in a reasonably
consistent manner to the complaint, I send 'em.  When I was a high
school student, a boy in one of my classes complained about a
stomachache.  The teacher wouldn't let him use the restroom or go to the
nurse.  It turned out that the boy had appendicitis.  I tend to remember
that.
 BM>  I hope your dues are paid up, you may need that million in
 BM> liability coverage some day.
Oh, ho.  Talk about cheap shots.
 LP>> I disagree.  I shouldn't be able to discuss something with a school
 LP>> employee that I can't discuss with the parents.
 BM>  You don't seem to be getting it....those other school employees have
 BM>  different credentials than you do, not better or worse just
Very patronizing.  I don't think I did that to you in that last message.
Let me check.  Nope.
 BM>  different, that should indicate they do have the training/experience
 BM>  to recognize and recommend just as your training and experience tells
 BM>  you that the kid has problems learning and you refer him/her to them.
You know, I already said that I thought we should just agree to
disagree, yet here you are, wielding the hammer & pounding away.
How do you know I don't do this?  I NEVER said that I disobey
district policy.  I just said that I disagree with it & you
come out guns blazing, ready to part my hair with a hollow tip
dumdum.  I am entitled to my opinion & you have no right or reason to
look down on me, lecture me or patronize me because you think you have
the "right" opinion.  Grow up, Bob.
(You also know what my opinion of getting kids assessed is because we've
discussed it & agreed about it.  I have a sneaking suspicion, tho', that
the reason behind this all-out effort is the recent comment I posted
about equity in per pupil spending.  BTW, I stand by that comment.)
Howeverso, when I fill out a referral, specific evidence such
as writing samples & teacher descriptions of behavior are necessary to
answer various sections of the referral form.  We have had parents who
protest these referrals & have been angry with teachers for turning them
in without notifying the parents first or getting permission to turn
over copies of students' schoolwork.  I guess teachers just can't make
parents happy no matter *what* they do.
End of subject for me.  Feel free to find someone else to discuss it
with.  Try Michael.  He seems to have some truly interesting opinions.
Leona Payne
... Plus ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose.
--- Via Silver Xpress V4.3P SW12194
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