-=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Michael Martinez <=-
 DT> MICHAEL MARTINEZ spoke of Re: Ivan Illich to DAN TRIPLETT on 07-31-96
 
 MM>School is fine for people who _want_ to be there.   But why should it
 MM>be obligatory?
 DT> Because students, like all "children" needed to be guided by
 DT> responsible  adults who understand that given a choice with no
 DT> immediate consequences  many would choose not to attend school.
 
That's the responsiblity of their parents, not you Dan nor any policy-
maker.
 MM> DT> I've always wanted to be a brain surgeon.  I think it would be
 MM> DT> cool to cut people's heads open and fix their brains.
 
 MM>In a non-schooled society, you may attempt your hand at brain surgery
 MM>whenever you want.  But several things naturally provide the best
 MM>possible outcome:
 DT> Do you realize how silly this sounds?
 
No, please explain it.
 MM>1.  If you are a great surgeon somehow in spite of not learning to
 MM>read or write, no harm is done and people like you
 MM>2.  If you are a miserable failure and end up killing a couple of 
 MM>patients, you will quickly find yourself without any more patients 
 MM>and somebody will likely decide to make sure that you are punished.
 DT> Great....I'll begin my brain surgery career tomorrow....are you free
 DT> say  about 3pm?
i don't need any brain surgery.
 
 MM>This type of system is much better than a schooled-system, because
 MM>the outcomes are equally as good if not better, and it is a much
 MM>freer and fairer system.
 DT> You are right....I am free to practice something I have an interest in
 DT> even though I may be a complete idiot and know nothing of the craft Im
 DT> interested in.  Hmmmm.....Im giving flying lessons tomorrow...would
 DT> you  like to be my first student?
 DT> I should warn you of three things.
 DT> 1. I  have never flown before.  2. I know nothing of airplanes.  3.  I
 DT> am  afraid of heights (but don't worry...I keep my eyes closed so I
 DT> wont  scare you).
 
Then, of course I don't want to fly with you.  Name any person who would.
Everyone has common sense, Dan.  You sound like you're accusing people
that they don't.  Is that what you think?
 MM>There's plenty of good pilots around, especially from the older days,
 MM>who don't know math and never went to aviation school.  Crop dusters,
 MM>private pilots, etc.. 
 DT> They didn't have the sophisticated electronic computerized planes to
 DT> fly  either.   
 
So, I wouldn't fly with them in a jet. I'd fly with them in a biplane
or a small engine prop.  I am capable of picking and choosing, and so
is everyone else in this world.  It doens't take the "brainpower" you
suggest comes from schooling.
 DT> I don't think you have a firm grip on Illich's ideas.  I don't think
 DT> he  is an advocate of the school (non-school) system as you have
 DT> described  it.  If he is then I think he is a bit on the looney side.
Then how come we made it through thousands of years with all the wonderful
cultures in our world, without the modern educational system? 
 DT> My advice is read Jerome Bruner's new book _The_ _Culture_ _Of_ 
 DT> _Education._  Jerome Bruner is Research Professor of Psychology and 
 DT> Senior Research Fellow in Law at New York University.  I think you
 DT> will  be enlightened.
Thanks.
-mike
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
---------------