-=> Quoting Sheila King to Michael Martinez <=-
 SK> Hi Michael,
 SK> There are certain students who do not do well in the ed system as it
 SK> is designed. I think that what this then calls for, is a reform for
 SK> these students so that they can learn better.
Reform?  I think what is boils down to is, why do you believe in 
compulsory education and forcing your (or other people's) ideas in 
reforming someone?
 SK> I also am glad that there are certifications for such persons as
 SK> doctors, teachers, pilots, and so on. I think your idea that we should
 SK> do away with these things is, well sorry if this sounds a bit harsh,
 SK> but...ridiculous. I want to be protected from quacks.
You will still have protection from  quacks without any certification
system.  I explained how this happens.  Word-of-mouth, direct observation
of how someone's performance, selection of the fittest.
 SK> I don't want to
 SK> take a family member of mine to a physician and find out after my
 SK> child or husband is dead or permanently disfigured that I should've
 SK> picked a different doctor.
You take that chance now.
 SK> Maybe you're just
 SK> jerking us around for the fun of the discussion???
 
Not at all.  I firmly believe there should be no certifications.
 -> For them, school is nothing but a certification of how little they
 -> know.  It belittles them, by saying, "You didn't make it through
 -> school, so you are going to be stuck working at McDonald's and you
 -> will have a heck of a time getting a different kind of
 -> opportunity".
 SK> Do you really think that the drop-out rate is that high? I understand
 SK> that for most schools it is below 10%.
What really is the difference between dropping out and ending your education
with a high school diploma?  Is it that much of a difference?
 SK> place that "weeds out" incapable individuals just doesn't agree with
 SK> the notion of the schools that I have, where most teachers and
 SK> administrators are doing their best to help students succeed and stay
 SK> in school. 
yes, we're all doing our best, but it's within a system which is
very poorly designed for learning.  That's why there's all these
problems, why teachers are underpaid, overworked, and constantly battling
something, maybe they don't even know what.   It's why we're always
made to believe there's some challenge or deficiency in the educational
process which has to be overcome.  Why should there always be some
thing wrong like that?  I don't think it's natural or necessary.  With
every hump that's conquered, there's another one looming.  It doesn't have
to be that way.
 SK> You say that you, personally, didn't enjoy high school. I suspect that
 SK> your own personal experiences are generating a lot of your support for
 SK> Illich's ideas.
Probably.  A truly content person is also blind.
 SK> Perhaps you would like to specifically point out some
 SK> of the things in your school that could have been improved.
 
No obligatory school. 
 SK> Because, of all the people I know, a great deal of what they know they
 SK> learned in a school.
Really?  Could you quantify that?  I'd like to hear what you consider
their personal store of knowledge and why it comes from school, please.
 
 -> Tell me something that you absolutely must learn in school, in order
 -> to survive in our world.
 SK> Wait a minute, this is another topic altogether and doesn't correspond
 SK> to the above point. Just because most people learn a great deal of
 SK> their total knowledge in school doesn't mean that they _couldn't_ have
 SK> learned these things outside school.
 
So why should they be forced to go to school to learn it?
 -> I see a lot of people grumbling about school and not enjoying it.
 SK> You know, a lot of people grumble about their jobs. A lot of people
 SK> grumble about the daily commute. A lot of people grumble about
 SK> politics. 
Maybe the typical job is worthless, unsatisfying, unenriching, 
unrewarding.  Perhaps we should examine the reasons for that, too.
The daily commute, I'm glad you brought that up.  Illich has a very
bad taste in his mouth towards "transportation".  He has very interesting
ideas on it and has written books specifically on it.  Read Tools for
Conviviality, and Energy and Equity.
 -> We have plenty of money to go around, there's no reason why the
 -> wealthiest students should get the best facilities, the best-paid
 -> teachers, and the most
 -> opportunities.  Abolishing our educational system, and letting people
 -> set up their own autonomous places of learning, will do wonders you
 -> can't even concieve of.  It will allow teachers to find their own
 -> niches and teach what they want.  It will allow people to easily
 -> access what they want to learn.
 SK> You know, I just don't think it would happen that way. There is only
 SK> so much demand for Calculus teachers (as you give the example of the
 SK> teacher you had who really wanted to teach calculus). Most schools
 SK> only need one such teacher. Letting everyone teach what they want isn't
 SK> going to let more people be able to teach calculus simply because they
 SK> like it and want to do so. I bet you there would actually be less
 SK> demand for calculus teachers under your proposed system.
 
I'm not saying there should be a great demand for Calculus teachers.  If
people don't want to learn Calculus, so be it.  I don't have a problem with
that.  I think whatever people want to learn, should be the guiding rule.
They're the ones who are the potential students.  Not the current
policy-makers.
 SK> I appreciate that (that he expresses the ideas better than you), but
 SK> I'll have to pass on that read for two reasons: (1) lack of time, (2)
 SK> from even the little bit that you've managed to share here, I know
 SK> that I will simply have fundamental disagreements with that author.
 SK> Same thing happened when I read one of Howard Gardener's books (which I
 SK> purchased). He had some good ideas, but so many of them I didn't agree
 SK> with that I could only make it about half-way through the book before
 SK> I put it aside. I felt that he had no experience with the teaching
 SK> situations I was dealing with, for if he did he wouldn't have written
 SK> a lot of those things. And I couldn't put much credibility in someone
 SK> telling me how to run my classroom if he had never been in the same
 SK> situation.
The point is, the situation shouldn't even exist to begin with.  It does
a very poor job of fostering learning, compared to the alternative 
outlined by Illich.
-michael
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