KS> As to the taxes on bread, shucks, I don't know for sure one way
 KS> or the other, but I wouldn't mind paying a few cents more so the
 KS> farmer could make a decent living without being subsidized by the
 KS> government.  Kinda makes me think that would bring the taxes down,
 KS> but I've heard that if the government *didn't* subsidize the
 KS> farmers we'd be paying a *lot* more for bread than we are now.
 KS> But, again, I'm not sure about that and maybe I just oughta leave
 KS> the tax and subsidy discussions to others.
 JC> 
 JC> And usually the "others" don't have any better ideas. 
 
 Ah, yes, the elusive "them".  That's why I think it's best to
 make your own bread if "they" are a thorn in your side.  (g) Actually I 
 had *you* in mind when I said about leaving the discussion of taxes 
 to "others".  I was kinda hoping you'd pick up the ball and run
 with it.  I was heading to the bleachers to watch the end of the
 game.  
 
 JC> In this day and
 JC> age of the huge society we have, I'm not sure going back to simple
 JC> "supply and demand" and barter would work any better on a _large_
 JC> scale. BUT... that doesn't prevent anyone from thinking on a smaller
 JC> scale. 
 
 Absolutely.  No shame in getting your hands dirty.  Jim, er, exactly 
 *how* small a scale are you talking about here?  I refuse to grow 
 my own tobacco or flax.  (g)  Likewise, I'm willing to knit my own   
 stockings again, but I don't really want to raise a few sheep to do it.  
  
 JC> Most of the "added on cost" to any product is "labor-saving".
 Definitely.  
 JC> And some people have the false impression that it is "time-saving".
 I'm lost... That *what* is time-saving?  Are you referring to large 
 scale operations whether in farming, baking, clothing, etc.?
 JC> BUT, if you really analyze it "people" are working more hours nowadays
 JC> thatn used to to provide their subsitence. The BIG difference? They
 JC> are working for _someone_ else to earn the "coin of the realm" to pay
 JC> all the "middle men". 
 Yes.  It seems that our desire for material gain *and* the desire for 
 an "easy" or "easier" life has locked us into the position of working 
 for someone else.  I don't think it's quite as simple as it appears.
 If you are saying that it would be possible to maintain the "material 
 easy" life by reverting to a smaller scale, I don't think we'd have 
 enough hours in the day.  I suppose to discuss this we'd really need
 to define what you meant by "small scale" and "providing subsistence". 
 But, I do think that if we would be willing to curtail our materialism
 and get our own hands dirty now and again, then perhaps it might be 
 possible to think on a smaller scale.  As I see it, this then brings 
 status, and the perception of status into play, which is where you're
 headed too:
 
 JC> This can even be seen in some NA cultures where material goods were
 JC> gathered and then redistributed to acquire status for someone or their
 JC> tribe. (Think about the U.S. and foreign aid.) In the Northwest Coast
 JC> traditions, it's  called the potlatch. It now appears that only after
 JC> contact with the white man did this accumulation/distribution get to
 JC> the point that it could almost bankrupt a tribe. But, "status" is VERY
 JC> important to the "mainstream culture".
 
 I don't know enough to discuss most of this, but I agree with your
 last sentence.  I also believe that status is important and necessary
 for every individual.  Status and respect. I think we get into trouble 
 when we get greedy and forget that other people also need/deserve 
 status/respect.  
 
 I'm lost in thought trying to figure out for myself 
 if this is a right, or if status/respect must be earned.  I tend to 
 think it's a little of both.  I also tend to think that we get too
 judgemental and cannot accept a difference as just being "different".
 We judge according to right/wrong and good/bad, and have trouble
 accepting levels or degrees of most anything that is "different"
 from our level.  I could climb deeper into the well, but I think
 right now it's best to get back out.  :)
 
 These are very complex issues and I only understand the tiniest
 part of them.
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