-=> ROGER NELSON wrote to WAYNE CHIRNSIDE <=-

 WC>RN> No, but then again, it may not have been available at that time.  It
 WC>RN> was 20 years ago.

 WC> On that I can offer no opinion, all I know was it was available in late
 WC> 2002.

 RN> I believe my vet would have recommended it if available and at the same
 RN> time would have cautioned me that it was only delaying the inevitable.

Not in my case, Spanky lived confortably until he got to
the generally recongnized lifespan for the breed and then a year, 13.

I wasn't aware of any hips dysplasia induced pain even at the end.

Availability of dex back then I've no opinion.

 WC> Yeah, due to certain infirmaties I've got I tried to find him a good
 WC> home at age 6 however all the people I talked to about it either wanted
 WC> him for the wrong reasons or were too dense to understand the rather
 WC> simple requirements of keeping him a safe and reliable dog.

 RN> I would imagine that Pit Bulls are like Dobermans in that they are a
 RN> one owner dog.  i

Uh, not this one.
Utterly thrilled to socialize and be friends with any and all.
To steal this Pit Bull whoever you might be just open your
car door and he'd jump right in happy as heck.


 RM> My German shepherd would have taken to another member
 RN> of the family if anything happened to me, but she would have been
 RN> practically useless to anyone else.

Spanky deferred to me as trained.
Struck behind the head with a 2x4 with some nut wanting to go back to
the jail or instition he was instationaliseds in I imagine.

Spanky did nothing.
My shirt got soaked with blood and I almost dropped to my knees
but knowing how Spanky would be received as a Pit Bull I never gave
him the go to which his previous owner had trained him.

He's was worth more to me than that and I was a big boy at 6'4" 255 pounds.
I dealt.
Sure his little 2x4 would not have fazed that dog in the slightest.
Teeth, muscle, brain and there's your Pit Bull

 WC> So I toughed walking him twice a day until the end.

 RN> I think you did the right thing.

I had zip for choice, everyone else would have, and stated wanted him
as an attack guard dog or to hunt wild boar.

The rest were too retarded to be trusted with the breed to maintain alpha
status through gentle light training.

 WC>RN> properly, they become an extension of whoever raised them.

 WC> Precisely RIGHT.

 WC> One must make it clear to the animal that you are the alpha leader of the
 WC> pack.  The original owner had attack trained the dog for the first two
 WC> years.

 RN> What method did you use?  Mine was rather simple, but any owner would
 RN> still have to spend a lot of time with the dog.

Stern look, harsh tone and make it very imperitive, a real voice of authority
and give no hint whatever that I wasn't already top dog.

Other than his first bath that is.
Snarled at me he did.
No giving him a bath.

Snatched him up to my chest where his muzzle was right at my neck.
Oops, I knew he was afraid of heights.
Set him down in the tub.
Bared his teeth and snarled at me.
I tossed a cup of water hard into his eyes.
Snarled and bared.
Repeat rinse.
Staring match of some two minutes or more ensued.
I used ever part of my control to keep from blinking
and I never say the dog blinked either, for 2 1/2 minutes.

Then Spanky looked away.
I won and the bath proceeded without further issue.

Nothing more than that.
Done - trained.
Maintain through routine demand of fast response to authoritatively 
issued commands.

This is what I could not get across to good homes that wanted him
but they'd even after I'd explained it to them were obviously bad
news as regards to maintain the dog safe.
I walked him off lead, no difficulties 11 years.


 WC> I got rid of that with myself giving the animal exactly ONE bath
 WC> where I assumed alpha status.

 RN> I didn't try that, but would be interested in reading the details.

See above.

 WC> After that he walked into the bath on his own after my request.
 WC> Not even a harshly issued command but a simple request.

 RN> After leash training on a regular basis for a lengthy period, depending

Leash training consisted of leash and issue prior two year owners command
""walk pretty", thereafter not pulling on the leash, done
training to the
leash,
already done for me.

Oh yeah, previous owner my girlfriend, Marine M.P. 

 RN> on the level of smarts the dog has, you can then take them for a walk
 RN> without the leash and they will follow along as though they were
 RN> tethered.

I gave up on the lead after a few months and walked him off forever after.

 WC> Thereafter I simply made the dog QUICKLY respond to various commands
 WC> while being walked off lead on a regular but sparce basis, say I paid
 WC> attention to this perhaps ten minutes a month or less.

 RN> Very similar to what I did.

Yeah well, easiest and most effective way.
My first dog ever mind you and lo it's a Pit Bull attack trained
by my girlfriend the Marine.

Oh well gotta learn somewhere with some breed, circumstances
elected that be a Pit Bull, non-neutered.

 WC>RN> A lot of TLC and time must be spent with them or they will follow
 WC>RN> their instincts instead of their human owner.

 WC> Once again precisely correct.

 WC> I saw this animal bare it's teeth and snarl precisely TWICE in its
 WC> lifetime.
 WC> The first when I gained alpha status giving him his bath and once again
 WC> when we came across a woman with her child while I was walking him off
 WC> lead as she STRUCK the child.

 WC> Spanky had picked up on my nature and as such first sat down, then bared
 WC> his teeth and snarled at the woman.

 RN> Most unusual in that an owner's dog could be concerned about anyone
 RN> other than its owner.  She could have sued you for harrassment.  (-:

She could have taken a nap on the sidewalk had she struck the kid again.
We're talking five here and a hard dead shot and not a slap or backhand.

Fortunately Spanky's rather obvious displeasure disuaded her from
making a second ill advised choice :-)

 WC> While she'd had her arm back to strike I'm guessing 5 Y.O. a second time
 WC> she arrested striking the kid instead threatening to report my dog.

 RN> The LEOs would have guffawed over that complaint and then arrested her
 RN> for child abuse.

Yuppers.
I mean he SAT first.
Not trained to that, the dog exercised judgement.
Kinda weird. 

 WC> Well my reply to that was my dog despite being off lead had done nothing
 WC> wrong but express his displeasure at seeing you strike your helpless
 WC> child.

 RN> The LEOs could have cited you for having no leash on your dog,

Oh they hassled me one time on an unjustified complaint of a neighbor 
that'd never been within 50 feet of the dog.

So I put him on a lead for perhaps five weeks.

A CAT lead of perhaps a 1/2 an inch wide and say 1.5 mm thick.
"Walk Pretty" and that was more than adaquate.

Shoot if this dog had wanted he could of easily snapped the other heavy leather
lead
I had and I'd previously had him on.
"Walk pretty." 

I could have walked this dog on kite string and I mean that literally.

 RN> depending on your local laws.  Here, someone complained about a
 RN> friend's dog not being on a leash and a State Trooper ticketed her for
 RN> that even though it was a small dog and on her property bothering no
 RN> one.

Legal Pinellas County illegal Saint Petersburg off lead.
No bother afterh the month long show of that near invisable cat lead.
The law dictates "lead", cat lead meets the definition of a lead.

Some officers cruising by looked at me with scorn but the lead came off after
five weeks and thereafter no issues.

Did I mention he was show quality? British Staffordshire no longer found
replaced by AmStaffs?
52 pounds.

Did I mention I think I had an outstanding canine? 

 WC> Go ahead and call the police and I'll report your child abuse.

 RN> That was the right thing to say.

I'm a large guy and I used a damn harsh tone in saying it.
Harsher than I ever used on Spanky.

 WC> Spanky had done nothing to be ashamed off and I was particularly
 WC> impressed with his sitting down first before expressing his opinion so
 WC> effectively it spared the kid another rather vicious blow.

 RN> Too bad you don't have a video of that incident.

No, I'd prefer not.
Spanky's performance but I'd not like to see so young a child struck 
so hard again.

Maybe edit to Spanky's response to start then go through him sitting first,
teeth bared back and pan to the women punch drawn, frozen with a five
year old child target.
That'd be nice :-) 

 WC> Once the woman and child had passed I sat down with the dog lavishing
 WC> praise upon him for his outstanding judgement.

 RN> That's exactly what I would have done.

It was PERFECT.

 WC> I had the somewhat unusual experience of watching my Pit Bull beaten up
 WC> by a feral CAT one day while wagging his tail.

 RN> I haven't seen a feral cat in ages.

 WC> Another time a Chihuahua attacked him at the ankle and he didn't appear
 WC> to notice while I doubled over in laughter knowing the tiny dog was in no
 WC> danger nor was my tough skinned Pit.

 RN> Some humans are afraid even of a Chihuahua.  It's really silly to see
 RN> someone afraid of one of them, but then again, some people are afraid
 RN> of spiders, wasps, mice, etc.

 WC> Another approximately ten pound dog routinely attacked Spanky by the
 WC> throat, again no damage no foul but it was I once again who had
 WC> to get the little dog off my animals throat.

 RN> Unbelievable!

No merely annoying the owner took no responsiblity allow the little
thing run loose to grab at my Pit Bull's throat, must of happened 
20 - 30 times.
Did I mention he'd never been neutered ;-)

 WC> Spanky paid it no mind at all.

 WC> On other occassions I had to DEFEND the Pit Bull from other dogs
 WC> attacking him as he never once responded as was my training.

 RN> In my case, the teaching was to protect me or a family member first and
 RN> then herself; whichever was the immediate threat.

He WAS trained, extremely well by above mentioned Marine, attack trained.
Just issue the command and good night Irene.
Command never issued, other ways to deal.

 RN> [...]

 WC> Hey he was absolutely the most trustworthy and reliable dog I've ever had
 WC> the pleasure of knowing.

 RN> Which made it all the more difficult to part with them.

Well like I said in a post a day or so back it's the first time
I'd not teared talking about him since I lost him 7-12-06

 WC> He could get obstinent now and again and dig his heels in on
 WC> a small issue making demands of me but as the issues were small
 WC> I generally aceeded to them. It gave him personality.

 RN> Or changed it, since it is my belief that a dog of intellect has
 RN> developed a personality by the age of six months.

Well I met the Marine before the dog (about three months old) and then I recall
upon seeing him and petting him saying to Greg and the girlfriend
"when's the next time you'll be going out together."

Greg say "why?"

I replied, "so I can come over and steal your dog."

Wound up with the Marine girlfriend and it was a package deal with Pit.

 WC> Well I never went over the top getting Spanky to be absolutely obedient
 WC> as he exercised good judgement on all occassions.
 WC> Getting into the trash five times excepted.

 RN> Still, a good dog, all things being equal.

How harshly do you think I responded?
Phhft.
It was a bid for more attention and nothing more.

 WC> Roger I guess we're just both dog lovers who realize they can be
 WC> incredibly loyal, obedient and trustworthy.

 RN> I agree.

 WC> I used to take Spanky down to the preschool to let the kids pet him.

 RN> What a wondeful thing to do!

Hey had I been more mobile I'd have taken him
around to elderly as part of that program to cheer them up,
kids in hospital as well but I wasn't up to it.

Getting THIS Pit certified safe, no problem, just hand him off
to evaluator and tell whoe.ver a few commands

 WC> The attendents were anything but happy the first few weeks until they
 WC> understood the animal was safe and I always took the time to explain to
 WC> the kids do NOT approach a similar looking dog as most are dangerous
 WC> due to the wrong sort of owners

 RN> Man, isn't that the truth!

 WC> I think the day the attendants accepted Spanky was the day one kid poked
 WC> him right in the eye.

 WC> Spanky's response to that was to back away two feet for about 15 seconds
 WC> then come back for some more attention from the SAME kid!

 RN> Either a very smart dog or a glutton for punishment.  

Don't much feel pain.

 RN>Maybe he was
 RN> backing up to assess the damage done to him and then realized he wasn't
 RN> really hurt.  

Nope, just to separate eye from finger, no harm no foul. 

 RN> In any case, what that kid did was a very stupid thing.
 RN> I would have asked him how he would like being poked in his eye.

I admonished the kid it wasn't a nice thing to do, guessing 4,
about the limit I could go.

 WC> Well now, this is the FIRST time since I lost him in 06
 WC> I've not broken down into tears describing him and now just barely.

 RN> It's really a strange thing how we will miss a pet more than a
 RN> relative.  That may seem like a cold thing to state, but it
 RN> nevertheless is true.

 WC> I could NEVER want nor desire to replace him with another dog and it
 WC> would not would it be fair of me to do so as I'd expect the same
 WC> degree of perfection I felt I had with Spanky.

 RN> I haven't replaced my shepherd, but at the present time I am taking
 RN> care of my daughter's three dogs and one cat.

 WC> As a final note as far as I can tell there's absolutely no difference
 WC> between Pit Bulls and other breeds of dog except humans bred them to
 WC> be incredibly TOUGH in the extreme and that any dog (and owner) greatly
 WC> benefits from the proper sort of training.

 RN> Amen to that.

 WC> A very intelligent breed though.
 WC> His command for crossing the street was "Spanky, cross the street."

 RN> Mine wouldn't cross the street unless I did.

Thirty feet ahead of me at the proper time I'd tell him
and he'd promptly cross, some people seemed to think this impressive.
Took about 3 -5 iterations to get him reliable to it.

 WC> The single most annoying thing was Spanky's habit of looking at me
 WC> like I was some sort of retard when I didn't immediately understand what
 WC> he wanted via making eye contact.

 RN> LOL!

Now actually I felt rather dense while he got his wants across rather easily.
It WAS annoying but I'd work it out.

 WC> OTOH his understanding of English astonished me on numerous occassion
 WC> when he complied to my requests I'd never trained him to!

 RN> They really understand complex things taught them at an early age and
 RN> though it may seem like they understand English, the things they really
 RN> know are their names and the things repetitively taught.  Everything
 RN> else sounds like "Blah, blah, blah" to them, voice decibels
 RN> notwithstanding.

Yeah and my sweet little 110 pound 5'11" Marine M.P. girfriend
once shot his attack command to the dog on me.

Sorry sweetie, I single handedly gave the dog a bath, you had to call
in half the neighbors to accomplish that.

Spanky stood in the middle of the room trembling all fours
not knowing what to do.

I said, "Spanky, go behind the recliner and lay down."
He scrambled to the back of the and dropped, with an audible thunk.

I virtually whispered the command.
Took the wind out of her sails, end of conflict as she sputtered, 
"but I trained you", addressing the dog

 WC> An out of control Chihuahua is hardly a threat.
 WC> An out of control Pit Bull can maim or kill with relative ease.

 RN> That is true, too.

 WC> Mine presented a good deal less of a threat than a Chihuahua :-)

 RN> Not to someone who didn't know the level of training your Spanky had.
 RN> They would still be afraid.

Usefull in the neighborhood I was in.
Walked to the north, off lead.
Walked to the south tightly reign on that heavy leather lead made
him look like he'd be dangerous.

Nope, he'd just run up to be petted, but the psychology worked
and the trouble makers and drug dealers would rear back.

After all he's a PIT BULL!!!

 RN> Something I've mentioned to Roy and Bob at one time or another is to
 RN> place your wife/girlfriend and your dog in the trunk of your car for
 RN> half an hour and see who is glad to see you when you open the trunk
 RN> lid.  (-:

Well the unworkable part of that scheme is this girlfriend, the Marine M.P.
would have bare handed and leg kicked her way out of that trunk in say
like 3 1/2 minutes and then she'd have come after me.

Access to a tire iron in the trunk not being an especially appealing
sight coming after me held by a combat trained Marine M.P.
Not especially appealing *without* a weapon either, she WAS a weapon.

Yes, regular female Marine, no hand to hand combat training back then
but female Marine M.P., the whole nine yards.

Full boat hand to hand combat training an whoa boy OO-RAH best get
elsewhere, she rather appears to have had paid attention to the Marine D.I. 



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