On 9/11/2019 08:46, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:
 LL>>> Can I list myself on my own private list?  Would that work?

 DD>> Nope. To be a nodelisted Fidonet node one needs to be listed in the
Fidonet
 DD>> nodelist.

 LL> Having an entry in the Fidonet nodelist does not make it accurate.

But it DOES make you "nodelisted".

 LL>>> Four zones, thousands of individual lists, and only god knows how many
 LL>>> master nodelists ...

 DD>> Four.

 LL> Plus one master nodelist.

Huh? Four master nodelists plus one master nodelist?
[...]
 LL>>> The only thing it states is for an individual to demonstrate
 LL>>> the ability to send and receive netmail.  Section 2.2

 DD>> Using FTN...

 LL> And yet not all are required to show such expertise ...

One can only be concerned about one's self. What others are doing is not your
concern.

 LL>>> Nodelist clerks take things from there, as the individual
 LL>>> has already done his/her part.

 DD>> P4 says that you must demonstrate that skill by sending a netmail to a NC
-
 DD>> and be able to receive one back.

 LL> It is not dependent on what P4 says or does not say.  The only thing
 LL> an individual needs to do in order to obtain a node is demonstrate the
 LL> ability to send and receive netmail.  Once that is done, nothing else
 LL> is required.

The NC you applied to will have to assign you a node number and add that number
and the appropriate details to the next netseg he (or she) sends up the line.
[...]
 DD>> A Sysop is a System Operator. If you operate your home computer system
you
 DD>> are a SysOp - but not necessarily a nodelisted one.

 LL> Nodelist clerks keep and maintain a nodelist.  Some are more
 LL> glorified than others, but all are just nodelist clerks regardless
 LL> of title.

They are also the people who primarily get to decide whether or not you become
nodelisted when you apply (buy crashing them the appropriate data in a
netmail).

 LL> Individual sysops who wish to do nothing more than play in Fidonet
 LL> without taking on any more responsibilities can do just that.

True - but they are not then a "nodelisted sysop" which some feel is a status
required for certain actions.

 LL> So why have distinctions at all between nodelisted sysops and sysops?
 LL> Why should nodelisted sysops have any more "rights" than other sysops?

Because that is the way they want it to be. They get a woody over being one up
on ordinary, non-nodelisted users.

 DD>> A point is a private arrangement between a point and a host - nothing
 DD>> officially to do with Fidonet. To Fidonet they are but users on/of the
 DD>> host's system.

 LL> And yet points are considered as being nodelisted sysops.

Not according to Fidonet Policy where all this is laid out. Pointlists are NOT
part of the Fidonet structure - merely a list of users who connect with a host
in a certain way.

 LL> Which negates the whole point of being a nodelisted sysop.

Nope - one gets more access to more things when one is nodelisted.
[...]

 LL>>> And then there are those who use other means to access Fidonet,
 LL>>> without ever having to bother with being a point.  Even without
 LL>>> actually being listed in the nodelist, they are considered as
 LL>>> being sysops.  Why is that?

 DD>> Could it be that they Operate a System? Being a Sysop does not make one
 DD>> nodelisted.

 LL> BBS-In-A-Box is or was an easy to use system.  Any idiot with half
 LL> a brain could set it up in less than a day.  And that was for those
 LL> who were slow.

But to be a Fidonet nodelisted node they would have to apply for a node number,
that number being assigned, and listed in the nodelist.

 LL> Today things have dumbed down where folks can use an app on android.

It still takes a little more than that to become a nodelisted sysop.


 LL>>> Perhaps there are no real qualifications.  Except for the want
 LL>>> to call oneself a sysop.

 DD>> Yet to be nodelisted in Fidonet the SysOp must observe other technical
 DD>> requirements.

 LL> That explains why Trump uses Twitter rather than Fidonet.

Indeed - he doesn't have to have the brain power to actually configure and
operate FTN software - he only has to log in.

 LL>>>>> Now.  Who, or what, should a send a netmail to?

 DD>>>> All fully explained in Policy4 (no, I cannot quote the para/verse
 LL>>> number).

 LL>>> Section 2.2 hardly explains anything at all pertaining to how
 LL>>> to obtain a node.  Nothing specific, or mandatory.

 DD>> How to "obtain a node number" is the specific mandatory requirements.

 LL> Mandatory?  I think not.

If you do not fulfil the conditions the NC you apply to expects then you will
not get a node number assigns, nor included in the nodelist.

 LL> According to Janis Kracht (remember her?) nothing is required at all.
 LL> Just answer "Not Sure" and let her figure it all out for you.

 LL> http://www.filegate.net/zone1/bnbform.html

Then make your application to her.

 LL> See how easy that is?  Just fill in the blanks, and just
 LL> answer "Not Sure" when in doubt.  It really is that simple.

Why have you not done it then?

 DD>> 

 DD>> 2.2  How to obtain a node number

 LL> Yep.  That's the proper section.  :)

 DD>> You must first obtain a current nodelist so that you can send mail.  You
do
 DD>> not need a node number to send mail, but you must have one in order for
 DD>> others to send mail to you.

 LL> Let's see.  There are four of them.  Eenie, Meanie, Minie, Moe ...

Yep - pretty well any of them will do - as long as it lists an NC conveniently
close to you (although with IP nodes that has become less relevant).

If you'd decided a month ago you could have even applied to me - but I have
surrendered my NC crown - now I'm just a lowly (nodelisted) sysop.

 LL> [..]

 DD>> The message you send must include at least the following information:

 DD>>       1) Your name.

 LL> Which can mean whatever name one wishes to go by.

As long as you can convince the NC you're applying to that it is your name.

 DD>>       2) Your voice telephone number

 LL> Optional, according to Janis Kracht.

If the NC wishes to contact you about being unable to connect with your node to
offer advice etc how will he/she do it?

 DD>>       3) The name of your system.

 LL> Optional, according to Janis Kracht.

But not to many others. Discuss this with your preferred NC.

 DD>>       4) The city and state where your system is located.

 LL> Optional, according to Janis Kracht.

You keep quoting Janis. You do realise that she is nobody of authority today -
she does not call the shots.

 DD>>       5) The phone number to be used when calling your system.

 LL> Optional, according to Janis Kracht.

True today - my system has the phone number listed as "Unlisted". When Policy
was written all communication was by POTS phone line and modem.

 DD>>       6) Your hours of operation, netmail and BBS.

 LL> Optional, according to Janis Kracht.

 DD>>       7) The maximum baud rate you can support.

 LL> Optional, according to Janis Kracht.

 DD>>       8) The type of mailer software and modem you are using.

 LL> Optional, according to Janis Kracht.

 DD>> Your coordinator may contact you for additional information.

 LL> IOW, none of it matters, as "your coordinator" may contact you
 LL> for additional information.  Whatever additional information that
 LL> might be.

And without giving any of the "optional" information requested above they may
NOT contact you.

 DD>> All information submitted will be kept confidential and will not be
supplied
 DD>> to anyone except the person who assumes the coordinator position at the
 DD>> resignation of the current coordinator.

 LL> And easily found online using google as your very best friend.

OK - tell me about myself from the "private" information I gave when I became
nodelisted.


 DD>> You must indicate that you have read, and agree to abide by, this
document
 DD>> and all the current policies of FidoNet.

 LL> Loyalty oath mandated by unsigned authors of P4, which was never
 LL> passed/ratified by any zone.

But if the NC you're applying to requires it you are not going to get shit
without complying.

 DD>> Please allow at least two weeks for a node number request to be
processed.
 DD>> If you send your request to a Regional Coordinator, it may forwarded to
the
 DD>> appropriate Network Coordinator.

 DD>> 

 LL> Since the document itself is not valid, it has no legitimacy.

Then I suggest that your application for nodelisting will fail. You will remain
a user.

 DD>> I think the procedure is laid out quite clearly. Which bit/s are you
having
 DD>> difficulty understanding?

 LL> It is unsigned.  It has never been passed/ratified by any zone.
 LL> It was unanimously rejected in zone 2, the only zone where a vote
 LL> took place.  That's for starters.

And yet it is the procedure/requirements that most NCs will want to process
your nodelisting request.

-- 

Regards
David
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