In article , gpatton{at}bayou.com
says...
>
>
>
>
>Fraser Orr wrote:
>
>> If you took the time to study some basic Christian doctrine you would
>> know that it is commonly held that Lucifer held preeminence before
>his
>> fall, due to his pridefulness,
>
>It appears you have John Milton's poem, Paradise Lost, mixed up with
>"basic Christian doctrine".

No, it is you who are "mixed up". See below. Besides: where did
you think Milton
got the idea? He didn't make it up out of the whole cloth, you know.

>There is nothing basic about that doctrine.

Yes, there is. That is probably why Scripture _mentions_ the fallen angels in
passing, as if already well known.

>That "doctrine" lacks any real scriptural support.

That is not true. Not, at least, unless you insist on following the Reader's
Digest version of Scripture, which is missing several books.

>Isaiah
>tells us that the one which you call "Lucifer" (Isaiah did not call him
>by that name) is dead and powerless.

This is a good example of your confusion. No, Isaiah did NOT refer to Satan as
'Lucifer' here in this passage. Not, at least, directly. Rather, as you say, but
got quite garbled, Isaiah used the term 'Lucifer' to refer to a king whose glory
had been like the morning star (Lucifer), but had fallen into ignominy.

But by a hermeneutic principle similar to that applied to Isa 7:14 in Mat 1:23,
the Christian Tradition has long seen this as prophetic of Lucifer = Satan as
well. See, for example, Augustine's Enchiridion 9.28-29.

THAT is "basic Christian doctrine".

> What should we care about some
>dead powerless thing?  And I might mention that being dead and
>powerless is quite different from what "basic Christian doctrine has to
>say about Jesus.

Right. But the _one_ 'Lucifer', the human king of old, is dead, while the
_other_ 'Lucifer', is very much still active. That is why it is so dangerous to
pretend there is no Scriptural support for his existence and activity.


-- 
---------------------------
Subudcat se sibi ut haereat Deo
quidquid boni habet, tribuat illi a quo factus est.
(St. Augustine, Ser. 96)

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