*** Quoting Jeff McKee from a message to Carol Shenkenberger ***
 CS> Now, I'm no expert by a long shot!  many the looks rule that out?  He
JM> I work part time for a large pet store that does carry pond fish and 
JM> supplies (the livestock buyer is a pond person - started a local club 
JM> for pond keepers). What you have may be a shubunkin. They do resemble 
JM> koi (not Coi) somewhat. If the local dealer has any books on 
JM> goldfish,see if they have anypictures of shubunkins in them. 
JM> Shubunkins generally are seen in a calico form,but they also exist in 
JM> in other colors as well.
Ok!  And thanks for the correct spelling of Koi.  Its one of the words I have 
heard said but never noted in print so was unaware.
Now shubunkin!  Ok, thats an idea.  Somehow I was thinking that was something 
else but now that I have my brain cells activated, I was equating shibunkin 
with lionhead.  I had no clue a shibunkin was like this.  Humm!  Possible!
Since i go underway (Sailor here, going to sea) for 5 days tomorrow, could 
you perhaps tell me more about them so I can read it when I get back?  (oops, 
just noted I didnt spell it right.  Shubunkin).  Things like how big they get 
etc would be nice to know.  Its obvious 'he' is a friendly fellow and not 
causing trouble with the other goldfish so I am not worried about it as long 
as he doesnt exceed my tank size for his comfort zone needs.
I've also got two 'algae eater/bottom scrongers' getting quite a bit bigger 
than I expected.  I dont really know the type I got, only that they are 
something i never had before and are not catfish (have a little one of those 
catfish looking suckers in there too).  Hard to describe actually since i 
have forgotten most of my college taxonomy lessons over the years.  Dark 
colored, spotted in a muted way, frillyish looking critters.  Call them both 
Joe Bob since they look like twins.  The big 'goldfish' is Gary and i havent 
named all the 19 others (or I do, then forget what I picked out next day) 
except that Angus is the black moor.
JM> Regarding ponds,as long as the pond is deep enough so that the lower 
JM> portions don't freeze,the fish can be left in over the winter. In my 
JM> area (Rochester,NY),that depth is generally something like 4 feet. If 
JM> a pond is a possibility,check with other pond people in your area for 
JM> specifics. A good place to locate info would be at a local garden 
JM> center that handles pond plants (several do just that in this area).
Humm.  Possible.  I'm not sure i want the work involved however in building a 
pond.  Also, my backyard while fenced and safe to do such in (live in a big 
city and you know what I mean) it's also the local kid gathering place much 
of the summer for the neighborhood.
Probably became the local gathering place because we feed the kids healthy 
food, obey any food restrictions the parents have, and just let the run about 
in a safe place.  
If placing such, I would have to carefully select the location so let me 
describe the uses of my back yard (hopefully on topic since we are doing it 
to determine fishpond possibilities!)
Its not a big yard.  It is fully fenced with wooden fences.  One side has the 
capability of holding a boat which we expect to arrive anyday (smallish thing 
for lake bass fishing, not a yachet).  The other side cant be used the same 
as it has the AC/Heat pump works that go out too far for a boat to pass 
without trampling the next door neighbor's yard.  The whole yard plot is 1/4 
acre?  IE normal city subdivision sized.  The backyard is not big by any 
standards other than a Hawaii Oahu city dweller.
There is a built in, brick grill about 1/3 of the way in, on the backyard and 
same side as the heat/ac pump.  The winter wood is normally stacked to the 
side along the fence at this same side.  That location would make a good spot 
for an outdoor shed later on and we have been considering it.
The rest of the backyard is 'free ground' with nothing on it other than a 
plastic chair or so, a plastic table, and a kiddie pool.  The 'food garden' 
such as it is, is along the fence line and is a single strip some 40 feet 
long.  The kids help plant it, and help eat the produce.  There is a fine 
sized open area, sized just right to play volleyball or badmitton which we 
use with temporary stakes to place the net up.  The night is lit well with 
quality exterior lighting that lights the whole backyard so that on warm 
winter nights, the kids can safely play after dark.
The lights may bother the fish in a pond?
The water drainage would require we put a 'lip' on any tank of between 2 and 
4 inches depending on location.
The ages of the children, would for safety reasons limit the depth to no more 
than 2 ft *or* a fence would have to be placed about the pond.
I would not feel the fish were safe, unless they could withstand direct 
sunlight all day at 105 degrees temps, as well as 1 ft snowfall and temps in 
the 0's at night, and low teens at day for as much as 3 months mostly in a 
row. Those are the wild extremes for here, but anything so big I *had* to use 
a pond, would have to be able to handle it if it came up?  (No, most winters 
here, are obiously milder than NY being quite a bit south but the heat may be 
a big problem?).
                                       xxcarol
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