-=> Quoting Ron McDermott to Michael Martinez <=-
 RM> so?  What if you're wrong?  Say "oops, nevermind"?
 
 MM>Really ,you should read Illich's book.  He does more justice to this
 MM>topic and has thought about it much more than I have.
 RM> Michael, here's the deal... What you're proposing as an IDEAL
 RM> is ok; it's an interesting philosophical argument, but I 
 RM> don't see any real system involved here.  It seems like, "Oh
 RM> heck, let's just scrap everything because it isn't perfect,
 RM> and let kids do whatever the heck they want - I'm SURE it'll
 RM> all work out".  Well, yes, it WILL all work out, but to what
 RM> end and at what cost?
One thing is for sure, as I have said.  It will be better than
what we have now, which is a restrictive, choice-limiting, 
freedom-suppressing system.
 RM> A lot of inner-city kids simply will not go to school at all;
They don't do it NOW, don't you see that?!
 RM> at least now they go sometimes and learn a little bit of what
 RM> school offers.  Those kids will learn to survive alright; 
 RM> they will become better muggers, thieves, burglars, etc....
Give me a break, man.  Plenty of unschooled kids don't become thieves
and muggers.  My grandmother didn't go to school at all.
 RM> A large percentage of latino girls won't be there because the
 RM> culture doesn't go in much for education for latinas... Now
 RM> what kind of jobs will they be able to get, hold?
What kind of jobs SHOULD they get and hold?  The same boring, worthless
office jobs as guys?
 RM> education of the streets isn't going to produce many people
 RM> in technical areas, or skill areas...
So you're saying that we need school to crank out people in technical
areas?  No, WE don't need it.  The big corporations and military need it,
but WE the people don't.
 RM> You still need to have
 RM> teachers, presumeably better ones than now; how do you plan
 RM> to GET them?
We shouldn't ever need to GET teachers, Ron.  We only need to allow them
to come forth on their own.  You're doing teachers as much of an injustice
by saying that we need to GET them to teach just like we need to GET 
students to learn, since they won't do so out of their own desire.
 RM> You going to double the pay to attract really
 RM> good people?  I don't see any specifics, just a lot of
 RM> philosophical posturing; something we teachers see a LOT of,
 RM> and most of it isn't worth spit when you bring it into a 
 RM> classroom.
Of course not, the classroom is what needs to go.  It's too restrictive.
It's not designed to promote learning.
 RM> The idea that, left to their own devices, people will seek an
 RM> "education" that will allow them to be "successful",
Who wants to be successful, Ron?  Tell me, why do you feel like you need
to MAKE people be or want to be successful?  I don't think that's right.
Who's idea of successful are you talking about, yours?  Why do you need
to force your idea of successful on people who don't share the same
feeling, the same culture?
 RM> It won't work any better than socialism does when it leaves
 RM> the realm of theory and is put into practice.
I don't see that socialism has ever been put into practice.  So-called
socialist countries just use the socialist banner to cover the fact 
that they're run just like all other countries, by leaders who somehow
believe they have the authority and the right to make decisions that
affect the lives of millions of people they don't even know.
-michael
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
---------------