DW> Well, for one thing, our first people, in the alternative to the fall,
DW> never ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore, they do not know the
DW> difference between right and wrong. In fact, they stay in the garden,
DW> blissfully ignorant. Come to think of it, they wouldn't know how to
DW> procreate either, so perhaps after all there wouldn't be
DW> overpopulation!

So you are saying that procreation is an inherently evil thing, and only those
who have fallen from perfection would know it?

If these hypothetical Fall-never-occurred people were blissfully ignorant of
sin and sinning, would they not be held by the Supreme Judge to be ultimately
INNOCENT of any & all charges?

DW> > Now I agree with this in a way. There would be less art and human charact
DW> > if we had never sinned because we do grow as people when we suffer
DW> > hardships. Perhaps that is WHY God did allow sin to continue and the fall
DW> > happen? So the end result would be a better world than if we never sinned

Without sin to struggle against, we have nothing to grow with -- it's like if
you want to grow/build your physical self(ie. muscles), you need to work out wi
yh some sort of resistance (weights or isometrically)

Without resistance/struggle, there's 0 growth and 0 chance to achieve our
fullest potential!

Here's a story:

             STRUGGLES

A man found a cocoon of a butterfly.

 One day a small opening appeared, he sat and watched the butterfly
 for several hours as it struggled to force its body through that
 little hole.

Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared as if it had
gotten as far as it could and it could go no farther.

So the man decided to help the butterfly, he took a pair of scissors
 and snipped off the remaining bit of the cocoon. The butterfly than
 Emerged easily. But it had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings.

 The man continued to watch the butterfly because he expected that,
at any moment, the wings would enlarge and expand to be able to
 support the body, which would contract in time.

 Neither happened! In fact, the butterfly spent the rest of its life
 crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings.

 It never was able to fly.

 What the man in his kindness and haste did not understand was that
 the restricting cocoon and the struggle required for the butterfly to
get through the tiny opening were God's way of forcing fluid from
 the body of the butterfly into its wings so that it would be ready for flight
once it achieved its freedom from the cocoon.

Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our life. If God
 allowed us to go through our life without any obstacles, it would
cripple us. We would not be as strong as what wecould have been. And we could
never fly.

So have a nice day and struggle a little !
From: CherDar{at}aol.com

DW> laughed out of court! Interesting though that you mention God's
DW> consent to the fall happening: some Christians believe the fall HAD to
DW> happen and was expressly planned. Although this destroys the notion of

Without a belief that God was fully in control before, during, and after the
Fall, then the concept of "God" as omniscient & omnipotent is negated!

God is not so weak-willed that He will not accept responsibility for His own
work!

There is no Duality -- there is only ONE -- the Almighty!

Everything has its purpose and use -- you and I may not see it, but that's
where TRUST("faith" is so improperly used) and LOVE come in!

I explain it with a parable:

A man takes his little 3-month-old child into the community health centre, for
some necessary immunization shots -- without these shots, the child will likely
die or become extremely crippled, and also has the chance to carry the diseases
to others and cause their death/disability. . .

The motivation is clearly love, on many levels (love for his child, of course,
and also for the community, and even for his wife, that she should never have
to suffer the heartbreak of having her child contract one of these diseases!)

The baby is innocent, of course. . .

So here we are, in the sterile white room -- the nurse comes in, holding a
needle, already prepared with the immunizing solution.

The father hold his little child in his arms, safely & warmly. . .

The baby looks up into daddy's face, and sees all the love -- a bonding moment
occurs, when. . .

suddenly. . .

the child's soft, innocent flesh is PIERCED by a HORRIBLY BRUTALLY PAINFUL
STAB!!!

The child has experienced what, in his little experience of life,the universe,
and everything, is a DRASTIC DISASTER of unprecedented proportions, and who
should be looking down on him in a sadistic pretense-of-love, while
facilitating this dire event, but FATHER!!!

Clearly the baby didn't know all that was involved, or Baby would realize that
it was all good and his daddy really does love him and sometimes life requires
painful moments as part of the overall journey.

But the lesson here is that Father really did know best, and truly loved the
child, and this love can sometimes be misunderstood, but as time goes on, the
child will grow in knowledge and experience and begin to see more & more
manifestations of daddy's love and consistent dedication & care!

So, too, it is with us -- in the bigger picture of Eternity, we are but
babes-in-arms in the loving arms of Our Father in Heaven.








DW> freewill, and thus again places God in the dock, it at least
DW> recognises the absurdities I have talked about previously.
DW> 
DW> Another one I forgot to mention incidentally is that how could Eve
DW> have known that it was wrong to 'disobey' God (though the wording in
DW> Genesis does suggest a suggestion rather than a command) without
DW> having first done what she was asked not to do? It's a conundrum isn't
DW> it, and it all gets too confusing. I prefer to cut to the chase by
DW> looking at the archaeological evidence of our history, i.e. that we go
DW> back hundreds of thousands of years, thus in one stroke discrediting
DW> the Biblical chronology of it all starting four and a half millenia
DW> BC. It's the simplest way of lloking at it. However, I did read
DW> recently that some Christians believe that Man existed for all that
DW> time the archaeologists say, BUT without spirits. That is, they were
DW> essentially robots until God gave Adam and Eve a soul, thus making
DW> them the first true man and woman. However, this is typically fanciful
DW> and leads to more questions than it answers
DW> 
DW> > Learning will always exist. The  only infinite thing in the universe is G
DW> > and so knowledge will never reach his level. It will grow and grow. Even
DW> > with perfect bodies, we are still limited beings. We can never know
DW> > everything.
DW> > 
DW> > I believe Agriculture would exist. Remember Adam's job was to tend the
DW> > garden and the animals. Eating is a pleasure, not just a necessity. Anima
DW> > would have continued as they did in the Garden. There were no carnivores.
DW> > All animals were herbovores. Even lions. When this earth becomes a paradi
DW> > it mentions animals, saying the lamb shall lie down with the lion or
DW> > something to that nature.
DW> 
DW> But you see, John, you are thinking about this simplistically, without
DW> looking at the implications. For example, say we were all eating just
DW> for pleasure - all the minerals, vitamins etc in the food that prolong
DW> our lives currently would not have been required, BUT they would still
DW> exist in the food, otherwise animals would not be able to use the
DW> minerals and vitamins. Our systems, on every level - microbiological,
DW> biochemical etc - would have to be different to those of animals. God
DW> would need to change the Laws - yes, laws! - under which life
DW> operates. It is not good enough to simply imagine man being made out
DW> of kryptonite. The reality now is that you can look at man's
DW> physiology under the microscope and see how it works. Why would this
DW> be any different in the no-fall scenario? Would you look under the
DW> microscope and see nothing, but God's invisible power? I don't think
DW> so, because that's not the case now, and God seems to work in
DW> remarkably consistent ways
DW> 
DW> > In this never fallen world, we would have submitted our wills totally to
DW> > God. So if he wants to violate our free will, we will gladly let him do s
DW> > He is our Lord and we are his servants. His will is always better than ou
DW> > wills. This is the way we Christians think now, so I assume that is what
DW> > these perfect people would think too.
DW> 
DW> To live is to have freewill. To have one's freewill violated is not to
DW> live freely. To submit their wills totally would be to live like
DW> puppets. Did God really want that? No, of course not
DW> 
DW> > Again, you are harping on the "laws" and ignoring the
examples. I show th
DW> > there are non-absurd ways this problem of yours (man in volcano) can be
DW> > resolved.
DW> 
DW> Well, they are God's laws so they deserve harping about. And as to the
DW> non-absurd ways, well, not according to what I say above. To be made
DW> of kryptonite is to be subject to a new law of nature completely
DW> separate to those other laws, same as those now, that operate for the
DW> animal and plant worlds. It's like mixing the finite and the infinite.
DW> Immortality does not 'fit in' on this physical plane
DW>  
DW> > > Well, He never had to do that because it was never going to happen.
DW> > > This I think is the bit that you brush aside too easily:
it was NEVER
DW> > > going to happen, i.e. God knew from the very beginning that man was
DW> > > going to err and then create His world and laws accordingly.
DW> > 
DW> > This is the place where you lose track of your original theory. You were
DW> > saying WHAT IF they never fell. Now you are arguing that the fell actuall
DW> > happend. Well, we all know that!. We were discussing WHAT IF THE FALL NEV
DW> > HAPPENED.
DW> 
DW> I didn't have an original theory: I said that the Fall not happening
DW> led into absurdity, which it does. The bit above was just wondering if
DW> it really is freewill when you are going to do something that God knew
DW> you were going to do before you were even created.
DW>  
DW> > I think that God took away their immortality after the fall, but he left
DW> > their near perfect genetics in place. This is how they could inbreed with
DW> > causing a race of monstrosities. But the inbreeding did take it's toll an
DW> > as generations bred there were more and more genetic alterations, some go
DW> > some bad. This led to shorter lifespans over time. It eventually leveled 
DW> > to the current life span we have now. And as we get better health care an
DW> > medical technology we can even improve our lifespans to a certain extent.
DW> 
DW> They couldn't have had immortality before the fall, because the laws
DW> of mortality would already have been in place, because God would have
DW> known before creation what was going to happen. You argue on the one
DW> hand, reasonably enough, that God would have known everything that was
DW> going to happen. Then, on the other hand, you talk about God taking
DW> things away and tinkering with genetic make-ups. One moment, you speak
DW> like like a true rationalist, the next like an anthropomorphist, if
DW> there is such a word
DW> 
DW> > Anger as in justified anger toward sin and imperfection. God sees what si
DW> > has done to his creation, what evil is done by people, how people hurt an
DW> > suffer. It makes him angry. It is a deserved anger. A righteous anger and
DW> > perfect anger.
DW> 
DW> Remember your robot? You created him and he had a program erro that
DW> made him reject you. Are you angry with the robot or angry with
DW> yourself for faulty workmanship? If the former, you are irrational; if
DW> the latter, you're a faulty workman. This is the case with the fall
DW> and its repercussions. Can you really not see that, John?
DW> ---
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DW> 
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DW>                                         

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