Tracy Hall wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2005, at 2:07 pm Isend...{at}hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > It was not meant "greater" as in deed, but greater in that
> > they were greater in number and would  reach out to the
> > greater populous of the nations.
>
> Perhaps so.  I know of no record that the apostles ever did works
> greater in deed than Jesus, but I believe that they were perfectly
> capable of doing so, had they developed sufficient faith.  Jesus had
no
> special advantage over them, except for his greater faith, which he
> developed patiently over his entire life.  "And Jesus increased in
> wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."  (Luke 2:51-52)
>
He DID have a "speical advantage" in that, 1) He did not operate in the
Spirit with all the trappings and limitation necessitated by a fallen
nature.  2) His measure of the Holy Spirit  was without measure.  No
one has ever had the leading and empowering of the Spirit to the degree
that Christ did.  It is one thing to say that we will never have more
of the Spirit than we presently do, but quite another to say that
sinful man can possess the Spirit in away compared to the sinless
Christ.
>
> > He meant exactly what He said.
>
> > No one debates that point.  The point of debate is what He meant by
> > stating such.
>
> There's no debate here, just an effort to express our "take."   I do
> thank you for your "take," from which I have learned.  I believe that
> Jesus used this language to try to teach his apostles that the source
> of their power needed to be the same as His.
>
> >Again, what greater miracle could be performed than
> > raising the dead?
>
> I agree.  The widow's son, Lazarus, Tabitha, and Eutychus all
> eventually died again.  Surely the greatest miracle is to raise one
> from the dead, never to die again.  Most, or perhaps, all of the
> miracles of Jesus were limited to some extent by the agency and faith
> of those who benefited from them.

Oh, you do not know what you are saying here!  I haven't the time to
develop this further, but taking your presupposition, how then do we
apply it to His control over both time (turning water into wine) and
nature (calming the storm)?  Where was the faith of the water or of the
wind?  You do not understand the basic tenents of grace.

>
> >> He  did only what any mortal can do by faith in the Father.
>
> > No, again I have to disagree.  I would have to modify your
statement
> > in qualifying man prior to the fall.  He was not encumbered by the
> > alienation from God, from men, from Himself as "mortal" men, ever
> > since the fall, are so encumbered.
>
> Perhaps it would have been better to say, "He did only what any
> *sanctified* mortal can do by faith in the Father."

No.  Because the "sanctified" mortal still carries around with him the
weakness of the flesh.  And do not define "flesh" as the human body.

> With respect to
> alienation, I believe that infant children are no more alienated from
> God than was the infant Jesus.

Perhaps you should read Rom 5 or Ps 51:5.

> We start at the same place as He, but
> we all eventually fail.

Again, you do not understand the nature of what you are concluding.

> I look to Jesus as the perfect example given
> by the Father to us, and so to inspire us, He had to be just like us,
> with no "unfair advantage."

What then of "yet without sin?"

>
> > This is something I often stumble over.  "Tempted as men."
> > Men are tempted from within their inclination to sin.
>
> I would say that men who have reached a state of accountability are
> tempted not from within, but from without, by Satan and those who
> follow him, who know how to distort the appetites of the flesh.

You should read Tertullian.  You are "soul" brothers, pun quite
intended.

> Only
> when we yield to the distortion can Satan get in and thus operate
from
> within.   We are free until we yield our freedom.

sorry, all I have time for tonight.  Might I ask how long you have been
a Christian?  Have you had any formal theological training?

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