LBoogie wrote:
> lsenders{at}hotmail.com wrote:
> > Does that help any?  That Paul terms the Church as a mystery,
directly
> > relates to it being a new dispensation separate from the previous,
the
> > system of Law given to the nation of Israel.
>
> I see that you prefer to emphasize the dichotomy between the
> dispensations of law and grace (the Church age).  I can emphasize the
unity.
>
> I believe that law and grace existed throughout

Please define "law."

Also, grace is an attribute of God so naturally it is to be found from
the beginning.  However, that does not negate the distinquishing nature
between the economy of Israel, being under Law, and that of the Church,
being under grace.  The grace of which Peter preaches at the beginning
of Acts and Paul preaches at the end of Acts and on into his succeeding
epistles is of a different emphasis.

> -- from cover to cover.
>       According to scripture law and grace is incredibly connected
and
> intertwined -- almost inseparable.
>
It all depends upon your definition of "law."    Even John separates
them in Jn 1:18.  And the greek there does not smudge the Law given to
Moses, but rather speaks to that though it was good (Rom 7:12) it could
not produce holiness in the sinner.  All it could do was condemn man
because the Law never empowered / enabled man to keep it.  But John's
point is that though the Law was an expression of the Logos, the
dispensation of grace ushered in at the incarnation, death and
resurrection of the Logos is superior.

> As a Covenant Theologian, I note that the dispensation of the Law is
aka
> the period of the law and the prophets (Matt. 22:36-40).
>
I understand Covenant theology.  Hodge, Shedd, Berkhof, Van Till, and
others all sit on my shelves, well tattered.  It's not that I disagree
with its dispensational view, only that CT does not take it far enough.
 All "dispensationalist" are CT, but to a greater degree of distinction
in their view of historical economies.

> Most interestingly enough, there appears to be two distinct aspects
that
> occured during the dispensation of law -- one being outward
(external)
> and the other being inward (spiritual).
>
> The external aspect obviously deals with circumcisions of the flesh,
> feast days, washings, and cermonies (Rom 2:28-29; 3:1-2; Col
2:16-17).
> All of these were mechanisms of the Moses law-system of which the
> Pharisees and Saducees were chief.
>
> However, there were deeper and hidden meanings regarding the law that

> were often overlooked.  1) That the law spoke of Christ (Lu 24:44)
and
> 2) That the law is love (Deu 6:8-9; Matt 22:37).
>
So?  The point is that something new happened at Pentecost.  A new
economy/dispensation was revealed by the HS, then and for age that
immediately followed.  The Gentile's soon began exhibiting "signs and
wonders" of the Spirit, indicating to the Jews that a partial
fulfillment of the OT prophecies concerning the nations was being seen.
 But Paul declares that the Church dispensation was a mystery.  In
Rom11:25 he futher distinquishes the two dispensations, at the present
dispensation where there is "neither Jew nor Greek" will end and once
again God will then turn back to the Jews specifically.  This is the
message of many of the OT prophets.  "Thy kingdom come" is not
primarily a prayer given to the Church.  It is an Israeli prayer for
the Abrahamic, Davidic, Palestinian covenants to come to full
fulfillment in the 1000 yr rule of Messiah, the "Lion of Judah" on
earth.  The Church is nowhere to be views as primary in either
interpretation or application in the 4 gospels.  It is not until
Pentecost that the Church Age came into being.  The reason you have the
"church" repeated mentioned in Rev 1-3, and then suddenly drop out of
sight in 6-18 is because this is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble."

> Christ even reprimanded the Scribes and Pharisees for neglecting
other
> matters of the law -- especially that dealing with faith (Mat 23:23).
>
faith has ALWAYS been the vehicle.  Under the Mosaic economy, however,
sins where never taken away.  They were covered.  It was not until the
cross work of Christ that it can be said that sins where actually taken
away "as far as the East is from the West."

> Which brings me to my next point.  The two aspects, external and
> spiritual, is really a reflection of the hearts of men both Jew and
> Gentile.  Scripture speaks of circumcision of the flesh and of the
heart
> (Rom. 2:28-29).
>
Romans is written to who?  Not to national Israel.  Go back a few
verses to v.14.  Paul again economically distinquishes Israel from the
Gentiles.
>
> How does the laws of Moses relate to those circumcised of the FLESH?
> They cannot do all the laws and hence remain unrighteous in God's
sight
> (John 7:17-19).
>
The Law only condemns.  It wad never established to bring any man to
righteousness.  That is why Christ had to come to fulfill it in our
stead in order that it might be imputed into the accounts of  Church
Age believers.

> How does the laws of Moses relate to those (including the Gentiles)
> circumcised of the HEART?
>
Again, it provides only the standard, to be perfect even as God is
perfect.  But unlike the era of grace in the Church, the Spirit is
never given either permanently nor as an indwelling empowerment for
sinful man to perform works of righteousness.  OT saints were
regenerated, but they did not have permanent indwelling Spirit to
enable them to fufill the requirements of the Law.

> (Heb 8:10 KJV)  For this is the covenant that I will make with the
house
> of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into
> their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a
God,
> and they shall be to me a people:
>
Context?  Who is Hebrews addressed to?  It is addressed to 1st C.
Jewish believers in Yeshua HaMashianch.  The point of Hebrews is to aid
1st C Jews in their transition from the old economy of Israel into the
new economy of the Church.  Acts speaks to and of the same transition.
>
> David, the man after God's own heart said it best --  (Psa 119:174
KJV)
>   I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
>
So?  He also said, "Take not Thy Spirit from me."  The Church Age
believer NEVER has to make such a petition.  If we are admonished not
to grieve or to quench the Spirit, the implication is that He is
permanently indwelling the Church Age believer.  This is the NT
teaching throughout.

> I don't quite see scripture as being evolutionary but more
revelational
> and progressive.  Evolution implies a wholesale change from one form
to
> another.

But there IS wholesale change.  Are you also an amillennialist?  If so,
try rebutting George Peter's, "Theocratic Kingdom."  And what of the
eternal state?  Is that not as well a "wholesale change?"  And so the
difference between the OT economy where the Spirit came and went as He
chose vs the NT economy where comes into the life of the elect,
regenerates them, circumcises the heart and places "My commandments"
into moral consciousness of the Church Age believer, and not only
empowers that believer to perform works of righteousness, but also
grieves within him when he does  not, upto the "day of redemption" when
and where He fulfills His commission to be the "Bride of Christ" before
the Bridegroom, "spotless and blameless."

The OT economy does not operate under the revelation of the Trinitarian
God.  The NT does.  Set.  Game.  Match.

>But God's sovereign plan has and always will be to save his
> elect for His Glory.  And in addition, people are saved by faith in
> Christ before and after the cross

ONLY looking back on it.  The blood sacrifices as determined by the Law
never took sin away.  The blood was only a "covering" until the
"suffering servant" could come as the "Lamb of God."

> -- there is no other way to salvation.

Faith has always been the vehicle and Christ has always been the
object.  But that does not dismiss the distinquishing differences
between the various economies from the fall of Adam, to the time of the
flood, to the time of Abraham's calling and Israel's genesis, to the
time of the Church, to the time of Tribulation and the Millennial
Kingdom and on into eternity.
>   This is the crux of the doctrine of Covenant Theolgy.
>

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