Douglas Cox wrote:
> seeker wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > The 2 witnesses are said to be able to affect the weather, such as
> > Elijah did.. How do we know that the Antichrist and Beast aren't
aware
> > of this and might torment the witnesses as a means of manipulating
the
> > weather if their identities are suspect?
>
> The story of Elijah, who shut up heaven so there was no rain for 3
years and
> a half, is alluded to in John's prophecy about the two witnesses, who
also
> have the power to "shut heaven." An interpretation of this, is that
the
> "rain" that is withheld is not literal rain, but the gifts that God
sends
> by his Spirit, like they had in the early days of the Church. Since
New
> Testament times, there has been a kind of spiritual drought. This
> interpretation of John's prophecy explains it. There has been no
additional
> scripture written, for example, since the time of the Apostles.
>
> Douglas Cox
>
The problem with such an interpretation is that it swims in the ocean
of relativity.  The answer only lies in the historic-grammatic
hermeneutic.  Unless a passage, esp in Rev, uses figures of speech such
as "like unto,", then there is no reason to jump into an allegorical
method of interpretation.  The normative method should always be
primary unless the passage implies typification or symbolism.  This is
not the case in this particular passage.

One must look back into all the previous prophecies given concerning
this time, and then bring them to bear on the interpretation.  Doing
so, it will be evident that the Church is no where to be found for it
has been "called up" into heaven in 4:1 and is never again mentioned
(as specifically detailed in ch 1-3) until noted as the Bride in ch.
19.  As with most prophecies, Rev. is given a key and that key is Rev.
1:19 "Write therefore

1)  the things which you have seen,
2)  the things which are,
3)  the things which shall take place after these things.

#3 must be understood in the Greek for the English student misses an
all important grammatical point.  It uses the ingressive aorist tense
which signifies the entrance into an entirely new condition.  To
buttress this, turn to John 1:14.  There "became flesh" is also placed
in the ingressive aorist to illustrate the fact that an entirely new
economy had been entered into.

#2 speaks to chapters 2-3, or the Church.  Chapter 4 distinquishes
itself from the condition of 2-3 by again stating the new condition, "I
will show you what must take place after these things."  The "these
things" in 4:1 is the Church age economy.  By using the ingressive
aorist, John was leaving no question to the 1st C. Greek reader just
what was occuring.

It would not surprise me that Doug would also interpret 2 Thes 2:3 to
read "apostasy."  However the simple Greek word used by Paul means only
"departure."  "Apostasy" is not a translation, but an
interpretation.
The problem for those who maintain that this speaks of a "departure
from the faith", (as the word apostasy has come to mean), is that that
meaning did not come into use until 2-3rd C.  Also, such a meaning
fails to look back to what Paul had already written and taught the
Thessalonians  (2 Thes 2:5).  In his first letter he speaks of Church
age believers being "caught up," (1 Thess 4:17) which is analogical to
John's being "called up" in Rev 4:1 and the entrance into the new
condition which John's Greek tense denotes.  So what Paul is speaking
of in 2 Thes 2:3 is the departure of the Church, or the "rapture" of 1
Thess 4:17.

To place the Church in the midst of the Tribulation, or the 70th Week
of Daniel's prophecy, completely blinds itself to the entire prophetic
revelation of the Jewish Scripture's concerning "The TIme of JACOB's
Trouble," and the Day of the Lord.  The DOTL **only** has relation to
Israel.  This day (read Zephaniah and list all the "day" references)
includes not only the Tribulation, but the Millennial Kingdom and even
the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom as well.  The "Great Tribulation"
which Christ refers to in Mt 24 is not applicable to the Church (for
the Church has not even been revealed yet) but to Israel.  "This
generation" of Mt. 24:34 is better understood by the English reader as
"race" or "nation" as most all version note in their marginal
references.  This is Israel!  The Church is never refered to by such
terms.

So, Seeker, I would suggest you pursue this a little further.  If you
wish, I can recommend some excellent books which would give you a good
introduction not only into the interpretation of Revelation, but also
introduce you to the various schools of interpretation and the
strengths and weaknesses of each.

-Loren

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