* Crossposted from: FREEDOM'S_VOICE
From: Joe Zychik 
Subject: Schulman/Zychik Debate - w/suprise ending Part 1
[The debate, held on July 11, 1996, was between Joe Zychik 
editor of the Zychik Chronicle and J. Neil Schulman, author of 
_Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns_.
The aftermath of the debate will shock you - delightfully.
The subject was: Should gun owners vote Republican or 
Libertarian?
The debate was moderated by Steve Silver, Founding 
Member of the Lawyers' Second Amendment Society. The 
moderator's comments are not in the transcript. The transcript 
contains minor, inconsequential edits for readability. A coin was 
flipped to see who would go first. Neil Schulman won. ]
Schulman: I'm tempted to say that coin was flipped to see 
which one of us is going to have to defend Bob Dole. But it 
comes to my job to argue seriously why we must support the 
Republican candidate for the 1996 presidential election. I could 
start off by saying that Bob Dole is making my job real tough.
About a year ago, Bob Dole was perfectly willing to come to an 
NRA-organized Second Amendment conference in Washington, 
D.C., and talk in support of the right to keep and bear arms. Bob 
Dole, also as Senate majority leader, committed to repeal of the 
assault weapons ban legislation that was passed as part of the 
Clinton anti-crime bill.
The result which brought gun owners out to the polls in 1994 
and made Bob Dole Senate majority leader, in essence setting 
him up for this presidential run.
But here we have within the last 48 hours Bob Dole essentially 
saying, "The assault weapons ban is old news, you know, people 
can get virtually identical things anyway, so it's really not on the 
political map any more, we don't need to discuss it." Now, if Bob 
Dole were still in the Senate I would have to be very seriously 
concerned that this was breaking a promise. But the fact is, Bob 
Dole is no longer Senate majority leader. That job has now fallen 
to Trent Lott. As for candidate Bob Dole, the question is still 
unanswered if such a bill were to reach his desk, would he sign 
it? Tanya Mataksa of the NRA said the answer is "Yes." Until and 
unless Bob Dole clarifies his position further to say that he will not 
sign such a bill, I would say that our buy-sell indicator, if it were in 
terms of a market, is still that Bob Dole is still on the market at a 
price we can afford.
If, however, he becomes any weaker on us, we're in trouble. If 
the Republican National Convention nominates somebody on the 
order of a Dan Lungren or a Christine Todd Whitman of New 
Jersey to be his vice presidential candidate, both who have done 
great damage to the rights of gun owners from the Republican 
side, I would say we would be in a position where we would have 
to consider whether we could afford the Republican ticket.
But here is the issue involved. It's very, very simple. Are we 
willing to put up with four more years of William Blythe Jefferson 
Clinton in the White House? If the answer is no, there is only one 
possible candidate who could defeat him this election cycle, and 
that is Bob Dole.
I would love it to be Harry Browne. Harry Browne has been 
somebody I've admired for 20 years, and if anything were to sour 
me on the Republican party, Harry Browne would be where I 
would put my support. But the fact is, there isn't a realistic chance 
this side of God coming down and, you know, putting his hand on 
Harry Browne's shoulder and anointing him president, that Harry 
Browne is going to be elected president in 1996. It just isn't a 
political possibility.
If we had a parliamentary-type democracy in this country, third 
parties would have power. Fourth parties would have power. Fifth 
parties would have power. But the way it's set up in this country, 
because the executive branch is separate and because of the 
electoral system that is set up here, third parties are not designed 
to have any political power in this country. And in fact that is the 
political reality. There is no electoral technology that I know of 
which is capable of taking a third party candidacy and putting him 
in the White House. That is a simple fact that we have to live 
with. We have a two-party system, Tweedledum-Tweedledumber, 
and that is our choice.
The fact is, is that the Democratic nominee, the current sitting 
president, William Blythe Jefferson Clinton, is the worst president 
from our point of view that has ever existed in United States 
history. He has done incredible damage to us in terms not only of 
the legislation which he has managed to ram down our throats, 
but in terms of the perception that he consistently puts forward 
that guns in the hands of private citizens are a liability, rather than 
an asset in the war against crime. He has total contempt for us. 
He knows he's not going to get our votes and so he does 
everything he can to damage us. We would not do worse if it 
were Charles Schumer in the White House, and we know how 
bad he is.
Bob Dole, right now, is moderately on our side. He is by no 
means a strong candidate for the Second Amendment, but he is 
not our enemy. And if I may quote an old mentor of mine, Robert 
Heinlein, "The choice is rarely in politics between good and 
better, but between bad and worse." And when it comes to bad 
and worse, there is no comparison between Dole and Clinton. 
That is why I find myself endorsing the Republican candidate for 
president, who just happens to be Bob Dole, for the defeat of 
William Blythe Jefferson Clinton in 1996, for several reasons.
Number one, the president is going to appoint the federal 
judges who will decide cases like Hickman v. Block.
He will probably come up with a Supreme Court nomination 
during the next four years, and we don't want that to be Clinton 
appointing the justice who is going to vote to basically suspend 
the Second Amendment. And there goes 10% of the Bill of Rights, 
and perhaps the most important 10%.
It will be the president who will be deciding whether to pursue 
the Wassenaar agreement, which essentially is an international 
gun control treaty which limits imports.
And it will be the president who will basically decide whether 
or not to sign the bill recognizing CCW licenses interstate, which 
will be very, very important. 
(Applause)
Zychik: Good evening. My name is Joe Zychik. I'm not a 
Republican, a Democrat, or a Libertarian. However, this year I will 
vote for the Libertarians because we are in a war for Liberty. And 
to win a war, you must take the long view. So tonight, I'm going to 
ask you to let Bill Clinton win the battle for the White House so 
that you can use your vote to win the war for Liberty.
And I'm going to ask you to vote for the Libertarians because 
the Libertarians are a pro-Liberty party. They want an end to all 
gun control, not just the ban on assault weapons. They want an 
end to all gun licensing. They want this country to return to the 
Constitution as it was written. Ladies and gentlemen, people tell 
you that to vote for the Libertarians is to throw away your vote. 
That's ridiculous. To vote for the Constitution is to invest your 
vote in Liberty. To vote for anything less than the Constitution is 
to tell the Republicans and to tell the Democrats that they can 
betray you, that they can betray the Constitution, that they can 
betray the Second Amendment, and get your vote anyway. So 
let's talk about winning battles. Let's talk about winning a political 
war.
The way you win a political war is not with the majority. The 
Libertarians will not win this election. They will not win elections 
for at least the next 10 years. But they don't need to win 
elections. What they need is the margin of victory.
What they need is about 10% of the vote. There is no 
politician in this country who can throw away 10% of the vote.
What I am asking you to do is to invest your vote in Liberty to 
help the Libertarian Party build an eventual 10% of the vote, 
thereby forcing the Republicans and the Democrats to become a 
pro-Liberty party.
Yes, what I'm asking you to do is to risk your vote. That's a 
very small risk. There were people who went before us, the 
Colonists, the Revolutionaries, who risked their lives for an 
opportunity for Liberty. They didn't have a guarantee of winning. 
The odds are they could have lost, or would have lost. They were 
up against the best army in the world. But they risked their lives 
because they had an opportunity. They had a chance for Liberty. 
What I'm asking you to do is to invest your vote in a chance for 
Liberty. And that's the way you win.
You don't win by helping anybody who betrays the Second 
Amendment. You don't win by helping anybody who does not take 
the Constitution seriously. You only win by fighting for your 
principles. You only win by fighting for Liberty. You cannot win by 
telling the Republicans, "Yes, you can betray me, but I will vote 
for you anyway." Because the day will come when the 
Republicans will know, as they are finding out, that they don't 
have to take your vote seriously.
When Bob Dole killed the legislation to overturn the ban on 
assault weapons, he did that because he was making a political 
judgment. His political judgment was that he could betray you, he 
could sell out the Constitution, he could sell out the Second 
Amendment, and you would still walk into that voting booth and 
vote for him. And as long as you walk into the voting booth and 
you vote Republican, then the Republicans will know that they 
can betray you and get your vote anyway.
If you want Liberty, then you must vote for it. And you must 
make the Republicans and the Democrats understand that you 
are serious about Liberty.
You won't get it this election. You won't get it next election. It's 
going to take about 10 years. So what? This is a long battle. 
What you need to do is you need to look at the long run, and you 
need to say, "I'm in a war, not a battle. I'm here for Liberty, I'm 
here for freedom, not for less gun control."
And there's one thing you can be sure of. If you vote for the 
Republicans, you will probably get less gun control than the 
Democrats will give you. But one thing you can also be sure of is 
if you vote for Liberty, if you vote for freedom, in the long run, you 
can win. Thank you very much.
(Applause)
Schulman: What message will it send to the media, to the 
Democrats, to the Republicans, and to the Libertarian Party, if in 
January of 1997, it is William Blythe Jefferson Clinton raising his 
hand to be sworn in for another four years? I assure you, it will 
not be a message to the Republican Party that our concerns are 
important.
What the message will be to them is the American people don't 
care about this issue, that's why they reelected Clinton.
If we are to have any power at all, we must have a realistic 
assessment of what our possibilities are. I do not believe that a 
Libertarian Party, which for 25 years has failed to make an impact 
in a presidential election, can gain a foothold in politics running in 
a presidential election. The Libertarian Party, if it is going to 
become a third party, has to do so at the grassroots level, 
winning mayorships, winning congressional seats, winning 
governorships, and winning a senate race. And then, after they 
have a handful of congresspersons and a senator or two and 
maybe a mayor of a few cities and maybe a governorship, then 
they'll have a candidate to be taken seriously for president. And 
when they reach that level, I would be out there supporting them 
to the best of my ability because Joe is right, they are the future 
of Liberty in this country.
However, if they cannot get to that point, there is an 
alternative strategy, and that is a Libertarian caucus within the 
Republican Party itself. Basically, you do the same thing that the 
Libertarian Party is, except you organize within the Republican 
Party and you find Libertarian candidates to run on the 
Republican ticket until you have a Libertarian Republican caucus 
in Congress. At that point, you've got a power base to start 
pushing the Liberty agenda.
But the American system of government as it is right now does 
not favor a third party gaining political power. It is not designed to 
do that; it cannot do that, and by supporting a third party, you are 
not advancing Liberty, you are simply advancing a spoiler who 
will make sure that the worst of the two bad parties remains in 
power. 
What the Libertarian vote does, if the Libertarians gain 
significant victories, is assure that the more statist, the more anti-
Liberty of the two parties will always remain in power. It divides 
us. It is divide and conquer. And we must unite in order to be 
victorious.
I am not happy that we do not have a great Libertarian 
candidate to vote for this time around. God knows, I wish we had 
Ronald Reagan to vote for again. It would be great if we had 
somebody at least of his stature, and he wasn't perfect. We don't 
have that choice. Our choice right now is between the Republican 
Party and the Democratic Party and its two standard bearers who 
will be the leadership of that party.
But let me give you a danger that is crucial here. If William 
Blythe Jefferson Clinton wins the presidency again, there is the 
possibility that our gains in 1994 will be lost. We will lose the 
Congress as well. This is a risk I do not think we can tolerate. We 
need to send the following message to the Republicans loudly:
Number one, you can't win without us, so you better start 
taking us seriously, and you better do it now. So I argue that we 
must support Dole.
And two: We must get on his case and put his feet to the fire 
and make sure he takes us seriously.
(Applause)
Zychik: What Neil is suggesting to you is that you vote for the 
lesser of two evils. So let's talk about voting for the lesser of two 
evils, and let's see exactly where that takes you. History is 
showing it to you. I want to talk to you about Adolf Hitler.
Adolf Hitler did not overthrow the German government 
violently. Adolf Hitler won the election. How did he win? He didn't 
win on his anti-Semitism. Most of the Jews in Germany didn't 
even take his anti-Semitism seriously. He won because compared 
to the communists, he was the lesser of two evils. And people 
went into the booths and they voted for Adolf Hitler to keep the 
communists out. And you know what? They got what they voted 
for. They got the lesser of two evils, because if you compare the 
evil of communism to the evil of Hitler's Germany, it's very clear 
that the evil of communism is far worse than the evil of Hitler's 
Germany.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you continue to walk into a voting 
booth and you vote for the lesser of two evils, the day will come 
when you will be confronted with an equivalent of an Adolf Hitler 
and the equivalent of a Joseph Stalin. And Bill Clinton is not too 
far from Stalin.
The fact of the matter is this: If you want Liberty, then walk into 
a voting booth and vote for it. Don't let the Republicans intimidate 
you into getting you to give them your vote even though they 
betray you. Fact: Legislation was passed in the House of 
Representatives to overturn the ridiculous ban on assault 
weapons. Fact: Bob Dole killed that legislation.
Fact: Bob Dole killed that legislation because he made a 
political evaluation. He bet. His bet was that he could betray you 
and get your vote anyway. And as Neil said, you must show the 
Republicans that they cannot betray you, that they cannot take 
you for granted. Well, Ha! Ha! Ha! How are you going to show 
the Republicans that they can't take you for granted if every year 
you walk into the voting booth and vote for them anyway?
If you want to show the Republicans that they can't take you 
for granted, then vote Libertarian. Vote for the party that will not 
take you for granted. Vote for the party that is pro-Liberty. Don't 
wait. Don't wait until they have a governor and two senators and 
a mayor. Vote for them now and help them get that governor, help 
them get that senator, help get those mayors. Invest in your 
Liberty. It's really as simple as that. A vote today is a vote for 
Liberty. A vote next year is a vote for Liberty. And every time you 
vote for Liberty, you pass the word, and you tell other people and 
you encourage them to vote for Liberty. And that is how you win a 
war.
You win a war politically with a small margin of voters, that is 
all you need. Bill Clinton won by 3%. If 4% of the pro-gunners had 
went and voted for--I'm sorry, if 4% of the vote was pro-gun and 
had voted for the Libertarians, you can bet that both the 
Democrats and the Republicans would be singing a pro-gun song 
to get your vote.
This is nothing more than welfare. What the Democrats and 
Republicans are asking you for is something for nothing. They 
want to give you nothing and get something in return. They want 
to give you less gun control than the next guy. That is not Liberty. 
That is not something. Something is an end to all gun control 
laws. Something is an end to all registration. Something is an 
ending, an overturning, an abolishing of the 1968 Gun Control 
Act. It's calling for an end, an immediate dissolving of the BATF. 
That's where you stand. That's where the Libertarians stand. And 
now it takes an act of courage on your part to simply walk into a 
voting booth and risk your vote. Risk your vote for Liberty.
It is far wiser to risk your vote for Liberty than to throw it away 
for less gun control than the Democrats are offering you. That is 
no deal. That is no wonderful situation for you. That doesn't 
secure your right to keep and bear arms. All it does is, it secures 
the Republicans in their decision to nominate somebody like Bob 
Dole, who's nothing more than a gun grabber in the Republican 
party. That is all he is. And it tells the Republicans that they can 
continue to nominate gun grabbers and get your vote anyway.
If you want Liberty, hey--vote for it. Thank you very much.
(Applause)
Joe Zychik
Editor, The Zychik Chronicle
http://www.pacificnet.net/~jzychik
To receive the ZC free, contact: jzychik@pacificnet.net
"All rights are individual."
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