TD> I am sober through the Program for 7+ years. I was making an
 TD> observation that the meetings have become much like church services. 
 TD> Here in New York (for the most part) there are speaker discussion
 TD> meetings where 1/2 the meeting is devoted to the speaker (person
 TD> giving his/her sermon), a short intro that barely tells the 
 TD> person in the meeting (congregation) what the purpose of
 TD> AA is, and ritualistic prayer at the end.
    You know man, I got kinda caught up in your trip here and was
    gonna play along.  But after about the third time I read your
    stuff I realized that I went thru a similiar phase in my recovery.
    I was real dissapointed with the meetings and the fellowship and
    all that.
    But I was too scared to be a "newbie" anywhere else, so I stayed
    around and just took pot shots at the meetings.  I would often use
    my time in the meetings to speak about how AA or NA had failed me.
    And I was doing that instead of doing what meetings are supposed
    to be for, sharing my recovery.
    I was sharing my anger and my fustration.  I was attacking the
    thing that had made it possible for me to be around long enough to
    even have the clarity of mind to have an opinion.
    I didn't know any better.  Maybe you don't either.
    One of the things that happened to me was having some obese dufus
    slither up to me and say something like "hey man, if it's so bad
    here, why don't you just leave?".
    and you know, I had to be hip.  I had to say that I was hanging
    around for the good of the newcomer that was too fried to figure
    out how to talk right, quick enough, to avoid getting kicked out
    on the street.
    I had re-written the NA thing to read" that no addict anywhere
    need die from the horror of active addiction without first having
    had an opportunity to learn how to talk about it correctly.".
    yadda yadda, big grins, the adolescent is poking fun at the
    surrogate authority figure.
    I went thru it.  It looks like you are going thru it.
 TD> Hell we even have the 24 commandments (Steps and Traditions) on the
 TD> walls along with the pictures of the Two Saints (Bill and Bob).
    You know man, I gotta tell ya, that if you can't tell the
    difference, then you don't know shit about either one.
    I don't know what your intentions are with all this twisted
    perception stuff, but I really think you ain't doing anybody any
    good with how you are going about it.
    The program works, and the fellowship works, for those who work at
    it, and it works real well right up to the point where it don't
    anymore.  And if it ain't working for you, go somewhere where your
    needs can be met.  Anything else, like hanging out taking pot
    shots and stressing the flaws is just self-abuse.
    and it's self-abuse that adversly affects others.
 TD> Now, if I did not know better (since most meetings here are held
 TD> in church basements) I would believe I stumbled across a weird
 TD> little sect of christians.
    Yeah, that perception happens.  And some meetings really do
    graduate towards that kind of "feel".  but not all of them.  And
    if it's such a big deal to you, why haven't you started a meeting
    that corrects those "flaws"?
    You raise some interesting points, but the way yer doing it, man,
    it looks bad.  It's like, if it's so bad, why do you go?  It looks
    kinda like the person in a relationship who is getting beat up all
    the time, and doesn't like it, but stays.
    It gets sympathy and attention, but it's kindofa closed loop, ya
    know?
 TD> Now, according to the aforementioned Traditions and Forward to
 TD> the Book, we are not allied with any sect. Yet we have become
 TD> a sect just by developing a "Priestly class" (sponsors) who
 TD> use the immutable "Word of God" (Alcoholics Anonymous) 
 TD> to spread the gospel of sobriety. We have also become
 TD> dependent on a Central Authority for the publications...
    Not that logic matters or anything, but just because we could be
    called a sect doesn't automatically ally us with any other sect.
    Calling sponsors a priestly class implies a whole helluva lot more
    commonality and unity than is actually there.
    Calling the big book, I'm assuming that's your inference, the Word
    of God is actually not far off in what a lot of people think, but
    you put this nice little half twist on it.  There's me, and a
    bunch of others who do believe that the only way some flipped out
    medium bottom alky like Bill W. could wrote the stuff was if he
    was being divinely inspired.  And that does kinda make it like
    another version of the "Word of God."
    But it ain't immutable.  It's just suggested that you don't mess
    with it until you have learned enough about it to use it.  It is
    suggested and you know for a fact, based on your own experiences,
    that it don't have to be followed to the letter in order to work.
    And we are not dependant upon a central authority for stuff to
    read.  It's just the meetings, the local representatives of a way
    that works, that are limited in what they can display.
    If you don't read anything but conference approved literature,
    that's kinda like a personal choice.  and, it won't hurt you any
    more than the info you already got in your head does.
 TD> Now this is becoming to sound more and more like a cult.
    If you wear rose colored glasses and stare at a white painted
    wall, the wall will appear to be rose colored.
 TD> Is this cult something I want to be part of?
    Don't know if you want to be a part of it or not, but it seems
    like you are still participating in it.
 TD> More and more I ask myself this question... and
 TD> yet have they (the mystical "THEY") found a better
 TD> way of maintaining daily recovery?
    How much of "their" day is spent harping on the shortcomings of
    something outside of themselves?
    And really man, how can you measure "better" or "worse" when it
    comes to daily recovery?
    I would suggest that one measure could be how much time you spend
    in comfortable communion with yourself.
    And I don't see you posting too much about that, from your own
    life.
 TD> I don't know, World Services does not do research into the
 TD> staying power (Sobriety) of its members, nor does it
 TD> keep records of successful recovery. All we have is
 TD> hearsay evidence of other members.
    And that was all any of us ever got.  And it works.  Cuz, mainly,
    none of us really believe all that research and publication shit
    anyway.  We do tend to believe what we hear and see from people
    who have convinced us that they have "been there".  and that, I
    think, is hear-say.
 TD> Personally I know I am sober by the program at least 7 years...
 TD> What about the other members? Was I the only person to see the
 TD> flaws in the system?
    No, yer not the only one to see the flaws.  And you're not the
    only one to use those flaws as an excuse for endless negative
    soapboxing at meetings.  You're just the loudest one, right now.
    It's like, getting dissapointed is a bitch.  But it ain't the end
    of the run.  Outgrowing people is painfull, but it only happens to
    those who are moving.
    And thanks for the info on that computer, I'll find out about it
    tomorrow.
    be groovy man.  more later.
--- FMail 1.02
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