MICHAEL MARTINEZ spoke of Re: Ivan Illich to DAN TRIPLETT on 07-31-96
MM> -=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Michael Martinez <=-
MM> DT> MICHAEL MARTINEZ Re: IVAN ILLICH RON MCDERMOTT 07-29-96
MDT> Let's say that I am  teaching a class on writing.  I have 5
MM> DT> students who HATE to write, or so  they say.  Should they be
MM> DT> allowed to take another class?  What of  history?  What of math?
MM>No, I think they should just take whatever they want.  If they hate
MM>to write, given the choice, they probably wouldn't be there, which I
MM>think is all right.  If you imagine a situation where everyone has
MM>the choice on what they want to learn, and when they want to learn
MM>it, and where it's very free-style opportunities, I can see people
MM>thriving in what they do best and what they're interested in, much
MM>more so than now.  
Michael, your lack of classroom teaching experience is showing.....do 
you understand the mind of a teenager?  Can you imagine what a teenage 
mind would choose to do if given the choice of "Well, you can either do 
this 15 page semester research paper or you can just choose to hang out 
with your buddies.  It will not have any effect on your grade."  Kid 
responds "Let me think about that for a bit......"
MM>Illich is a very very incredible writer.  I have read three books of
MM>his, and I'm starting two more right now.  Every time I get into one
MM>of his books fresh, he amazes and suprises me.  After reading _Tools
MM>for Conviviality_ and absorbed it, later on I would think I knew him
MM>and what kind of approach he takes.  I thought I had his ideas
MM>basically figured out. 
Maybe you should read something else..... 
MM>IT's sort of hard to understand him, especially in the first couple
MM>of  chapters.  When I read his book, I don't understand it until I
MM>finish it. 
I have read his stuff too and find some of his writing interesting, some 
fascinating, some rather boring, and the rest impossible.  If he really 
wanted to convey his ideas to the "general" public then he would need to 
tone down his vocabulary.  He is rather pedantic in my opinion.
MM>You guy have to remember, the changes he would like to see in society
MM>and what he finds wrong with the modern industrial world, are ideals.
MM>It's black-and-white stuff.  
We are no longer in a modern industrial world....we have long past that 
stage of our history.  Illich does not understand the heartbeat of 
American education and certainly has little understanding of what goes 
on in a classroom.  
MM>School is fine for people who _want_ to be there.   But why should it
MM>be obligatory?
Because students, like all "children" needed to be guided by responsible 
adults who understand that given a choice with no immediate consequences 
many would choose not to attend school.
MM> DT> I've always wanted to be a brain surgeon.  I think it would be
MM> DT> cool to cut people's heads open and fix their brains.
MM>In a non-schooled society, you may attempt your hand at brain surgery
MM>whenever you want.  But several things naturally provide the best
MM>possible outcome:
Do you realize how silly this sounds?
MM>1.  If you are a great surgeon somehow in spite of not learning to
MM>read or write, no harm is done and people like you
MM>2.  If you are a miserable failure and end up killing a couple of 
MM>patients, you will quickly find yourself without any more patients 
MM>and somebody will likely decide to make sure that you are punished.
Great....I'll begin my brain surgery career tomorrow....are you free say 
about 3pm?
MM>This type of system is much better than a schooled-system, because
MM>the outcomes are equally as good if not better, and it is a much
MM>freer and fairer system.
You are right....I am free to practice something I have an interest in 
even though I may be a complete idiot and know nothing of the craft Im 
interested in.  Hmmmm.....Im giving flying lessons tomorrow...would you 
like to be my first student?  I should warn you of three things. 1. I 
have never flown before.  2. I know nothing of airplanes.  3.  I am 
afraid of heights (but don't worry...I keep my eyes closed so I wont 
scare you).
MM>There's plenty of good pilots around, especially from the older days,
MM>who don't know math and never went to aviation school.  Crop dusters,
MM>private pilots, etc.. 
They didn't have the sophisticated electronic computerized planes to fly 
either.   
MM>It's a quickly self-limiting process.  Non-masechistic people aren't
MM>going to continually return to an unsafe doctor or unsafe pilot.  And
MM>word gets around on who's good and who's not.
I don't think you have a firm grip on Illich's ideas.  I don't think he 
is an advocate of the school (non-school) system as you have described 
it.  If he is then I think he is a bit on the looney side.
My advice is read Jerome Bruner's new book _The_ _Culture_ _Of_ 
_Education._  Jerome Bruner is Research Professor of Psychology and 
Senior Research Fellow in Law at New York University.  I think you will 
be enlightened.
dt
þ CMPQwk 1.42 445p þ"ATHEISM: A non-prophet organization.
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