CB>Do we get quality graduates? No--testing does not produce 
CB>quality, testing only finds defects.
 RM> You've been repeating this mantra for some time now, and 
 RM> with all due respect to Mr. Deming, I don't think that his 
 RM> theories on manufacturing necessarily carry over to 
 RM> education.  Specifically, I find it hard to accept that
 RM> having exit exams wouldn't improve the quality of our
 RM> graduates.
CB>Actually, the type of test that you mention, (an exit 
CB>test), might serve to motivate some-possibly raising their 
CB>score, for others who are quite capable, it might decrease 
CB>their score due to fear, etc.. I think that the quality of 
CB>education a student receives would not increase at all--
I think that students would be more motivated to take the
best courses, rather than simply worrying about grades.. 
CB>You might find graduate quality---but where do you set the test level?
Somewhere along the line, we have to decide what it is that
we want students to know (or know how to do), and test for
those things.
RM> Does Mr. Deming take into account that in education, the product 
RM> interacts with the process and can be influenced in its (the 
RM> product's) actions?  When making a tv, this isn't a factor ....
CB>Yes, he does, but he also states that the student also is a customer 
CB>and in all businesses where people are delt with, high quality can 
CB>be achieved.  Doesn't a doctor have the same problem with 
CB>influence, a lawyer?  
Yes, but the external motivation to follow direction is 
greater in these fields....
CB>Are you sure that the testing that is done in your state 
CB>increases the quality of graduates?  Test scores in several 
CB>different national tests have been rising slowly over the 
CB>past 10-15 years. Maybe the scores are due to some other 
CB>factor.
Sure?  No, can't say I'm sure, but NY has a pretty good 
track record; especially considering the population density
and poverty levels within the state.  For a state which is
close to 50% urban population, our kids fare pretty well in
comparisons with other states...
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 * MR/2 2.26 * OS/2 WARP: Logic, not magic.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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