LP>   SK> I think it simply boils down to this: A few trouble makers in ANY 
size
LP>   SK> class, including a small class, can really throw a wrench into the
LP>   SK> works. When this handful of trouble makers is removed, (say they 
happe
LP>   SK> to be absent on the same day) the class becomes positively 
enjoyable.
LP>   SK> What this boils down to, then, is an argument in favor of
LP>   SK> self-motivated, cooperative students.
......
LP>  Larger classes, 23-29 can work if there aren't too many problem
LP>  children or they can be effectively stifled.  OTOH, when you get beyond
LP>  22, the middle to lower level kids (on the motivational scale, if not
LP>  the academic scale) tend toward feeling anonymous
Yes, about 22 seems to be the max size to me for non-honors courses for
the teacher to actively keep track of all the kids. This year in my two
Intermediate Algebra classes (nice kids, but do have some problems...) I had
20 to 22 kids in each class throughout the year, and this seemed ideal.
LP>  In fact, I've had a few who participated in shenanigans transferred to
LP>  other periods with smaller enrollment.  It appeared that the combination
LP>  of splitting them from their partners-in-crime & being able to increase
LP>  the amount of supervision I can give them in a smaller class contributes
LP>  somewhat to their progress.  They didn't become model students by any
LP>  stretch, but they managed to pull a passing grade.
It's really nice when the teacher has the leeway to do this type of thing.
We seldom have such schedule flexibility at our school. (Our building 
resources
are pushed to max limits.)
LP>  Removing the "troublemakers" does seem to be a key, but in really large
LP>  classes (over 30 students,) the ability to disappear in a crowd can
LP>  enable those borderline students, who might otherwise stay on task, to
LP>  be somewhere else mentally & lose the value of instructional time in
LP>  much the same way as when a troublemaker disrupts teaching.
I agree. I know that there are certain students (the fade away types) who
simply are quiet and don't attract teacher attention. I find that in classes
of 30+ these are the kids whose names I learn last (sometimes approaching
the end of the first semester). It really bugs me, and I try (when I can
think of it) to make a conscious effort to keep more of my attention focussed
on these kids, but it ain't easy!
LP>  I've always wondered where these studies were done, you know, the ones
LP>  which said 35 students in a kindergarten class is okay...?  I've taught
LP>  kindergarten, & NO ONE should be confined with more than 15 of the
LP>  little devils.  They move so darned fast.
Really? I don't recall (not like I'm steeped in research) studies saying
35 kindergartners is OK. While 15 seems highly unlikely as a class size in
the real world, max of 25 certainly seems reasonable.
LP>  Certainly, one would hope that any entity producing such a study would
LP>  have respectable credentials.
Sometimes, like Dave Mainwaring, I wonder that a full appreciation for
proper statistical methods is involved.
LP>  IMO, self-appointed experts who have NO
LP>  classroom experience should not be making pronouncements about how 60
LP>  college students are more difficult to manage than 60 elementary aged
LP>  children; and most especially obnoxious are the quasi-experts who tell
LP>  one to "ask any _______" (fill in blank with job or profession only
LP>  emphemerally relevant to the expert's argument.)  But that's only MY
LP>  opinion.
Yeah, well then there's that, too. 
Sheila
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