MM>We should scrap the entire educational system.  Once that happens, 
MM>natural and efficient systems of learning arise, and of course a subset
MM>of these will contain places which are very similar to current college
MM>classrooms.
There seems to be an awful lot of jumping to conclusions
involved here...  So far, I don't see anything being offerred
as an alternative which is convincing - I don't consider zen
education to be a viable solution.  The way I see it, some
will become educated to the point of being able to succeed
in our society, and a great many more will not; I fail to see
how that represents any improvement over what we have....
 SK> I disagree with the following three remarks:
 
MM> Now, most people in our country learn all they need to know from
MM> they're own lives, not from school.
 
MM>Yes, but why do you disagree with it?
Because we do not consider it to be true, but instead to be
a generalization which is based upon nothing more than your
personal conjecture..
MM>Tell me something that you absolutely must learn in school, in order 
MM>to survive in our world.
First of all, THAT isn't the statement with which she is
taking issue.... "Survival" is too vague a term....
MM> Schools aren't institutions of _learning_.   They are institutions
MM> that weed out and groom various degrees of people to serve various
MM> functions in society.
MM>Please explain why you don't agree with this statement.
Because the statement is not one of objective fact; it is
a personal point of view based on a biased perspective...
MM>What is high school, but the process of weeding out the delinquents?
My definition is: An attempt to teach a range of facts, 
skills, and thinking processes to a broad cross-section of
teenaged children with a wide range of goals in mind.  As
such, it is not a perfect fit for everyone, but is instead
a compromise between a vast number of conflicting ideals.
A degree indicates that the student has met a minimum
standard of knowledge, skills, and reasoning...
MM>What is undergraduate school but the process of weeding out people 
MM>who aren't capable of graduate school?
A GRADUATE school may view it that way, but the undergraduate
school, very likely, does not....
MM>In college, you don't learn to _distrust_ the current way of doing
MM>things, the current laws, the current scientific system, you learn
MM>to trust it, to believe in it, to agree with it.
Huh?!?  Why is it, do you suppose, that history has shown 
the educational community, the "intelligentia", to be the 
most visible target of totalitarian governments?  The 
college campuses are ALWAYS centers of political and social 
unrest.  This statement is simply incorrect...
 SK> I am curious what makes you feel so strongly about the formal ed
 SK> system this way, and what you would suggest instead?
At this point you went on at length and basically said that
a good teacher is one who promotes interest and a poor one
does not... We all agree with that... It is ALSO not 
responsive to what Sheila asked... Finally you say the
following:
MM>Abolishing our educational system, and letting people set up their 
MM>own autonomous places of learning, will do wonders you can't
MM>even concieve of.  It will allow teachers to find their own niches and
MM>teach what they want.  It will allow people to easily access what they
MM>want to learn. 
You sound so sincere that I want to believe you, and so very
sure that this will happen... May I ask why you're so sure?
Has this ever been tested?  When?  Where?
SK> I would bet that without obligatory schooling, the number of 
SK> children out learning "street life" would increase dramatically, 
SK> to the detriment of not only those children themselves, but all 
SK> of society.
MM>I don't think so.
Yes, and Illich doesn't think so, but do either of you KNOW

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