Hello Steve,

>LL>Martyrdom was once a hallmark of Christianity.  But today, there
>LL>are no more martyrs.

>SA>Not too many in the Western "Christian" nations - at least not in
>SA>Australia in my lifetime. That will change after the rapture &
>SA>during the reign of Antichrist, when noachide laws are enforced.

>LL>Er, after the "rapture" there will be no more
"believers".

SA>Well, no "church age" believers, if the church age ends at
the rapture.
SA>However, there will be fellowservants & brethren of those who were killed
SA>for the word of God & the testimony they held, plus the 144,000 servants
SA>of God from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel, & the great multitude
SA>from the nations which came out of great tribulation (Rev 6 & 7).

It could also be there is no rapture.  Suppose the "church age" ended
decades or centuries ago.  Would we know?

>LL>What Christians have done is to replace their faith with that of
>LL>a "civil religion".

>SA>That is true... much of the emphasis these days is not on salvation by
>SA>grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but on living a good life, obeying
>SA>the commandments of men, being charitable etc.

>LL>IOW, a pagan religion.

SA>Possibly, but they would be unlikely to identify as pagans, unless they
SA>abandoned their Christian civil religion. Example - G W Bush considers
SA>that Moslems worship the same God as Christians, which is erroneous, but
SA>Bush probably doesn't identify as a pagan.

Islam is sort of like a simplified, or watered-down, version of
Christianity.  Christians and Muslims do hold some things in common.
But there are also differences.

>SA>In any event, the Church is considered to begin on the day of
>SA>Pentecost in 32 AD,

>LL>Circa 29 AD to 32 AD.  Nobody knows exactly what year.

>SA>That is why I put "considered" - the reference I was using (The
>SA>Bible Topic Book Volume 1) gives a definite 32 AD, but I don't know
>SA>for certain all the details, & I am aware that there are variations
>SA>for the year of Christ's birth & subsequent events. Other sources
>SA>will "consider" other date and times, based on seasonal evidence
>SA>etc. It isn't my area of primary interest, but it is topical, so if
>SA>you have any relevent info, please post it.

>LL>In summary, the birth of Jesus was on December 25, 5 B.C.  This is
>LL>noted in Matthew 1:1-25, in an allegorical sense.  In order to be
>LL>considered "rabbi" or "teacher", Jesus had to
have attained the age
>LL>of 30. Therefore, his public ministry could not have begun earlier
>LL>than 26 A.D. Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried during the
>LL>period when Pontius Pilate was procurator, between 26 A.D. and 36
>LL>A.D.  Pentecost occurred roughly two months following Jesus' death
>LL>and resurrection.

SA>The best answer I can find for the correct date of Jesus' birth is along
SA>the lines of - "the Scriptures ... do not give us a precise date
...",
SA>"No one really knows for sure when Jesus was born ...". I
have no opinion
SA>on the actual date ... I just go along with December 25th much as the
SA>"Queen's Birthday" is celebrated here in June, though her
DOB is in April.

Matthew gives 42 generations from the time of Abraham to Jesus.  Three
sets of 14 generations.  The Julian Calendar was instituted for use
throughout the Roman Empire on January 1, 45 B.C.  The 42nd year after
the Julian Calendar began was January 1, 4 B.C.  Jewish boys were always
named on the eigth day after birth, making Jesus' birth on December 25,
5 B.C.

>LL>One can look at Revelation as having three parts -

>LL>1. The escape (1st rapture)
>LL>2. The second coming (2nd rapture, or resurrection)
>LL>3. The establishment of the kingdom

>LL>The first rapture takes place before Antichrist takes power. The
>LL>second rapture takes place during the reign of Antichrist. The
>LL>establishment of the kingdom takes place after Antichrist.

>LL>IOW, some Christians (true Christians deemed worthy) would
>LL>"escape" the trials and tribulations set to take place. Other
>LL>Christians would remain, until slaughtered by the forces of
>LL>Antichrist, thus "escaping" further persecution.

>SA>That is "partial rapture", & has its adherents, but
1 Thess 4:15-17
>SA>doesn't imply that a subset of saints will be left behind. As I
>SA>understand it, the rapture ends the Church age, & marks the transition
>SA>to the reign of antichrist, with its saints and martyrs.

>LL>The gospel accounts and St. Paul's account seem to be of different
>LL>events.  The gospel accounts seem to refer to true Christians
>LL>"escaping", before the trials and tribulations of Antichrist are
>LL>placed upon the world.  The letters of St. Paul seem to refer to a
>LL>"resurrection" taking place during the reign of Antichrist.

>LL>Any other so-called Christians remaining after the slaughter would
>LL>not be Christians.  What follows is the end of the world, with no
>LL>living thing remaining.

>SA>Not all life will end, for the days will be cut short by the return of
>SA>Jesus Christ to stop the killing, as in Matthew 24:22.

>LL>"For if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be
>LL>saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

>LL>Notice it is the "household of God" who will be judged first -

>LL>"For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of
>LL>God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do
>LL>not obey the gospel of God?" - 1 Peter 4:17

>LL>IOW, those Christians who are true followers of Christ will escape
>LL>the trials and tribulations of Antichrist.  Those left behind will
>LL>die.

>LL>"If you have repented your sins and are born again, you have been
>LL>washed in the blood of the lamb.  You are saved; worthy of both
>LL>heaven and the rapture of the church." - Jerry Falwell

>LL>Compare what Falwell said with the words of Jesus -

>LL>Matthew 10:37-38
>LL>Matthew 7:21-27
>LL>Luke 21:34-36
>LL>John 10:27-30

>LL>I wish it were as easy to get to heaven as Falwell says...

SA>Hmmm... the only URL I can find attributing those words to Falwell is
SA>at www.satansrapture.com/falwell.htm - I'd prefer to be able to verify
SA>that he did say that. They are quoting Falwell from his "Thomas Rhodes
SA>Baptist Church", but AFAIK, he is at "Thomas Road" -
not "Rhodes".

The author of the satansrapture site has some weird views.  But he does
have a valid point in what some televangelists proclaim.
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