From: "Geo" 

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Dream on Rich, if passwords were enough MS wouldn't be pushing Intel for =
hardware DRM that can't be removed because it's in the cpu.

Geo.
  "Rich"  wrote in message news:434a84db{at}w3.nls.net...
     I'm saying what I wrote.  Your previous statement is irrelevant to =
your claims of DRM and also false.  Your new fiction is nonsense too.

  Rich

    "Geo"  wrote in message
news:434a407e{at}w3.nls.net...
    You are saying I can take a pentium D machine and vista and have it =
boot without the special mode or you are claiming that and your =
definition of DRM are different somehow?

    Geo.
      "Rich"  wrote in message news:4349cae3{at}w3.nls.net...
         Irrelevant to your claims of DRM and also false.

      Rich

        "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:4349c91d$1{at}w3.nls.net...
        None of those are a mandatory part of the boot process.

        Geo.
          "Rich"  wrote in message news:4349439c{at}w3.nls.net...
             No more or less than passwords, TLS/SSL, smart cards, =
tokens, or anything else someone wants to make a mandatory part of any =
process they choose.

          Rich

            "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:434921c2$1{at}w3.nls.net...
            But the feature being discussed can not only "be used" for =
DRM, it can be used to FORCE DRM on those who don't want it and to =
prevent competition on the OS market by not allowing an OS that doesn't =
force drm to be used.

            Geo.
              "Rich"  wrote in message
news:434839da$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                 My objection to your use of the term DRM is that it =
doesn't apply and diverts the discussion away to off topic, often silly, =
emotionally charged claims.  A claim that something could be used for = DRM
could apply to anything as there is no limit to what someone might = use. 
Passwords can be used for DRM.  They are today.  TLS/SSL can be = used for
DRM.  It is today. Smartcards, tokens, or anything to identify = the entity
to which rights were granted can be used.

                 None of this helps for secure boot whose purpose is to =
validate the software environment and has no need to identify the user = or
the machine.

              Rich

                "John Beckett"
 =
wrote in message news:7roek156s13jun0lt9u808ahvmc20pbmrj{at}4ax.com...
                "Rich"  wrote in message
news::
                >    Your reply falls apart immediately after "as you =
well know".
                >  In fact you have it exactly backwards.

                Maybe you're answering in automatic mode??

                Just because I mentioned the terms "Geo" and
"DRM" in =
the same message
                does not mean I am supporting all or any of Geo's =
assertions re DRM.

                In fact, I was pointing out that trusted computing is =
capable of good
                things, and I predict that with the rising =
sophistication of malware,
                companies really will need trusted computing systems for =
their laptops if
                the laptops are allowed to connect to the normal company =
network.

                I claim that the same features of trusted computing that =
provide the
                benefit of secure remote access are also capable of =
providing DRM. I am
                not commenting on whether that is good or bad.

                I would appreciate a clear correction if I have made a =
mistake in the
                above (i.e. which words are wrong, and briefly why).

                > What you approve is up to you and if you use it can =
provide you with
                > a degree of trust not available without secure boot.

                I understand that.
                =20
                > Many of george's opinions on DRM are ...

                That's an issue for another thread, IMHO.

                John

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Dream on Rich, if passwords
were enough =
MS wouldn't=20
be pushing Intel for hardware DRM that can't be removed because it's in = the=20
cpu.
 
Geo.

  "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:434a84db{at}w3.nls.net...
     I'm
saying what I =
wrote.  Your=20
  previous statement is irrelevant to your claims of DRM and also =
false. =20
  Your new fiction is nonsense too.
   
  Rich
   
  

    "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>=20">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>=20
    wrote in message news:434a407e{at}w3.nls.net...
    You are saying I can take
a pentium =
D machine=20
    and vista and have it boot without the special mode or you are =
claiming that=20
    and your definition of DRM are different somehow?
     
    Geo.
    

      "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:4349cae3{at}w3.nls.net...
        
Irrelevant to your =
claims of DRM=20
      and also false.
       
      Rich
       
      

        "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>=20">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>=20
        wrote in message news:4349c91d$1{at}w3.nls.net...
        None of those are a mandatory =
part of the=20
        boot process.
         
        Geo.
        

          "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:4349439c{at}w3.nls.net...
            
No more or less =
than=20
          passwords, TLS/SSL, smart cards, tokens, or anything else =
someone=20
          wants to make a mandatory part of any process they=20
choose.
           
          Rich
           
          

            "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
=
wrote in=20
            message news:434921c2$1{at}w3.nls.net...
            But the feature being =
discussed can not=20
            only "be used" for DRM, it can be used to FORCE DRM on those =
who=20
            don't want it and to prevent competition on the OS market by =
not=20
            allowing an OS that doesn't force drm to be =
used.
             
            Geo.
            

              "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:434839da$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                 My objection =
to your use=20
              of the term DRM is that it doesn't apply and diverts the=20
              discussion away to off topic, often silly, emotionally =
charged=20
              claims.  A claim that something could be used for DRM =
could=20
              apply to anything as there is no limit to what someone =
might=20
              use.  Passwords can be used for DRM.  They are=20
              today.  TLS/SSL can be used for DRM.  It is =
today.=20
              Smartcards, tokens, or anything to identify the entity to =
which=20
              rights were granted can be used.
               
                 None of this =
helps for=20
              secure boot whose purpose is to validate =
the software=20
              environment and has no need to identify the user or the=20
              machine.
               
              Rich
               
              
                "John Beckett" <FirstnameSurname{at}com=">mailto:FirstnameSurname{at}compuserve.com.omit">FirstnameSurname{at}com=
puserve.com.omit>=20
                wrote in message news:7roek156s13=
jun0lt9u808ahvmc20pbmrj{at}4ax.com..."Rich"=20
                <{at}> wrote in message >   =20
                Your reply falls apart immediately after "as you well=20
                know".>  In fact you have it
exactly=20
                backwards.Maybe you're answering in automatic=20
                mode??Just because I mentioned the
terms "Geo" =
and "DRM"=20
                in the same messagedoes not mean I am supporting all =
or any=20
                of Geo's assertions re DRM.In fact, I was =
pointing out=20
                that trusted computing is capable of goodthings, and =
I=20
                predict that with the rising sophistication of=20
                malware,companies really will need trusted computing =
systems=20
                for their laptops ifthe laptops are allowed to =
connect to=20
                the normal company network.I claim that
the same =

                features of trusted computing that provide =
thebenefit of=20
                secure remote access are also capable of providing DRM. =
I=20
                amnot commenting on whether that is good or =
bad.I=20
                would appreciate a clear correction if I have made a =
mistake in=20
                theabove (i.e. which words are wrong, and briefly=20
                why).> What you approve is up to
you and if =
you use=20
                it can provide you with> a degree of trust not =
available=20
                without secure boot.I understand =
that. >=20
                Many of george's opinions on DRM are ...That's =
an issue=20
                for another thread,=20
          =
IMHO.John=


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