From: "Geo" 

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You have a real aversion to the DRM monkier, so does MS. What is it they =
call that stupid windows update copyprotection thing, Genuine Advantage? =
WTF is that supposed to mean, it's DRM/copyprotection plain and simple, =
why not call it what it is?

Geo.=20
  "Rich"  wrote in message news:434c8152{at}w3.nls.net...
     You are the one that keeps injecting DRM in every other sentence.  =
Try sticking to the truth and it may be possible to have a meaningful = conversation.

  Rich

    "Geo"  wrote in message
news:434c6e29{at}w3.nls.net...
    Dream on Rich, if passwords were enough MS wouldn't be pushing Intel =
for hardware DRM that can't be removed because it's in the cpu.

    Geo.
      "Rich"  wrote in message news:434a84db{at}w3.nls.net...
         I'm saying what I wrote.  Your previous statement is irrelevant =
to your claims of DRM and also false.  Your new fiction is nonsense too.

      Rich

        "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:434a407e{at}w3.nls.net...
        You are saying I can take a pentium D machine and vista and have =
it boot without the special mode or you are claiming that and your =
definition of DRM are different somehow?

        Geo.
          "Rich"  wrote in message news:4349cae3{at}w3.nls.net...
             Irrelevant to your claims of DRM and also false.

          Rich

            "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:4349c91d$1{at}w3.nls.net...
            None of those are a mandatory part of the boot process.

            Geo.
              "Rich"  wrote in message news:4349439c{at}w3.nls.net...
                 No more or less than passwords, TLS/SSL, smart cards, =
tokens, or anything else someone wants to make a mandatory part of any =
process they choose.

              Rich

                "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:434921c2$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                But the feature being discussed can not only "be used" =
for DRM, it can be used to FORCE DRM on those who don't want it and to =
prevent competition on the OS market by not allowing an OS that doesn't =
force drm to be used.

                Geo.
                  "Rich"  wrote in message =
news:434839da$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                     My objection to your use of the term DRM is that it =
doesn't apply and diverts the discussion away to off topic, often silly, =
emotionally charged claims.  A claim that something could be used for = DRM
could apply to anything as there is no limit to what someone might = use. 
Passwords can be used for DRM.  They are today.  TLS/SSL can be = used for
DRM.  It is today. Smartcards, tokens, or anything to identify = the entity
to which rights were granted can be used.

                     None of this helps for secure boot whose purpose is =
to validate the software environment and has no need to identify the = user
or the machine.

                  Rich

                    "John Beckett" =
 wrote in message =
news:7roek156s13jun0lt9u808ahvmc20pbmrj{at}4ax.com...
                    "Rich"  wrote in message =
news::
                    >    Your reply falls apart immediately after "as =
you well know".
                    >  In fact you have it exactly backwards.

                    Maybe you're answering in automatic mode??

                    Just because I mentioned the terms "Geo" and
"DRM" =
in the same message
                    does not mean I am supporting all or any of Geo's =
assertions re DRM.

                    In fact, I was pointing out that trusted computing =
is capable of good
                    things, and I predict that with the rising =
sophistication of malware,
                    companies really will need trusted computing systems =
for their laptops if
                    the laptops are allowed to connect to the normal =
company network.

                    I claim that the same features of trusted computing =
that provide the
                    benefit of secure remote access are also capable of =
providing DRM. I am
                    not commenting on whether that is good or bad.

                    I would appreciate a clear correction if I have made =
a mistake in the
                    above (i.e. which words are wrong, and briefly why).

                    > What you approve is up to you and if you use it =
can provide you with
                    > a degree of trust not available without secure =
boot.

                    I understand that.
                    =20
                    > Many of george's opinions on DRM are ...

                    That's an issue for another thread, IMHO.

                    John

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You have a real aversion to the DRM =
monkier, so=20
does MS. What is it they call that stupid windows update copyprotection = thing,=20
Genuine Advantage? WTF is that supposed to mean, it's DRM/copyprotection = plain=20
and simple, why not call it what it is?
 
Geo. 

  "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:434c8152{at}w3.nls.net...
     You are
the one that =
keeps injecting=20
  DRM in every other sentence.  Try sticking to the truth and it =
may be=20
  possible to have a meaningful conversation.
   
  Rich
   
  

    "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>=20">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>=20
    wrote in message news:434c6e29{at}w3.nls.net...
    Dream on Rich, if passwords were =
enough MS=20
    wouldn't be pushing Intel for hardware DRM that can't be removed =
because=20
    it's in the cpu.
     
    Geo.
    

      "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:434a84db{at}w3.nls.net...
         I'm
saying what I =
wrote. =20
      Your previous statement is irrelevant to your claims of DRM and =
also=20
      false.  Your new fiction is nonsense too.
       
      Rich
       
      

        "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>=20">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>=20
        wrote in message news:434a407e{at}w3.nls.net...
        You are saying I can take a =
pentium D=20
        machine and vista and have it boot without the special mode or =
you are=20
        claiming that and your definition of DRM are different=20
        somehow?
         
        Geo.
        

          "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:4349cae3{at}w3.nls.net...
            
Irrelevant to =
your claims of=20
          DRM and also false.
           
          Rich
           
          

            "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
=
wrote in=20
            message news:4349c91d$1{at}w3.nls.net...
            None of those are a =
mandatory part of=20
            the boot process.
             
            Geo.
            

              "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:4349439c{at}w3.nls.net...
                 No more or =
less than=20
              passwords, TLS/SSL, smart cards, tokens, or anything else =
someone=20
              wants to make a mandatory part of any process they=20
              choose.
               
              Rich
               
              

                "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
=
wrote in=20
                message news:434921c2$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                But the feature being =
discussed can=20
                not only "be used" for DRM, it can be used to FORCE DRM =
on those=20
                who don't want it and to prevent competition on the OS =
market by=20
                not allowing an OS that doesn't force drm to be=20
                used.
                 
                Geo.
                

                  "Rich" <{at}> wrote in
message news:434839da$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                     My =
objection to your=20
                  use of the term DRM is that it doesn't apply and =
diverts the=20
                  discussion away to off topic, often silly, emotionally =
charged=20
                  claims.  A claim that something could be used for =
DRM=20
                  could apply to anything as there is no limit to what =
someone=20
                  might use.  Passwords can be used for DRM.  =
They are=20
                  today.  TLS/SSL can be used for DRM.  It is =
today.=20
                  Smartcards, tokens, or anything to identify the entity =
to=20
                  which rights were granted can be used.
                   
                     None of =
this helps=20
                  for secure boot whose purpose is to validate=20
                  the software environment and has no need to =
identify the=20
                  user or the machine.
                   
                  Rich
                   
                  
                    "John Beckett" <FirstnameSurname{at}com=">mailto:FirstnameSurname{at}compuserve.com.omit">FirstnameSurname{at}com=
puserve.com.omit>=20
                    wrote in message news:7roek156s13=
jun0lt9u808ahvmc20pbmrj{at}4ax.com..."Rich"=20
                    <{at}> wrote in message >   =20
                    Your reply falls apart immediately after "as you =
well=20
                    know".>  In fact you
have it exactly=20
                    backwards.Maybe you're answering in =
automatic=20
                    mode??Just because I mentioned the terms =
"Geo" and=20
                    "DRM" in the same messagedoes not mean I am =
supporting=20
                    all or any of Geo's assertions re DRM.In =
fact, I was=20
                    pointing out that trusted computing is capable of=20
                    goodthings, and I predict that with the rising=20
                    sophistication of malware,companies really will =
need=20
                    trusted computing systems for their laptops =
ifthe=20
                    laptops are allowed to connect to the normal company =

                    network.I claim that the same features of =
trusted=20
                    computing that provide thebenefit of secure =
remote=20
                    access are also capable of providing DRM. I =
amnot=20
                    commenting on whether that is good or bad.I =
would=20
                    appreciate a clear correction if I have made a =
mistake in=20
                    theabove (i.e. which words are wrong, and =
briefly=20
                    why).> What you approve is
up to you and =
if you=20
                    use it can provide you with> a degree of =
trust not=20
                    available without secure boot.I understand=20
                    that. > Many of
george's opinions on =
DRM are=20
                    ...That's an issue for another thread,=20
                    =
IMHO.John=


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