From: "Rich" 

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   I'm saying what I wrote.  Your previous statement is irrelevant to =
your claims of DRM and also false.  Your new fiction is nonsense too.

Rich

  "Geo"  wrote in message
news:434a407e{at}w3.nls.net...
  You are saying I can take a pentium D machine and vista and have it =
boot without the special mode or you are claiming that and your =
definition of DRM are different somehow?

  Geo.
    "Rich"  wrote in message news:4349cae3{at}w3.nls.net...
       Irrelevant to your claims of DRM and also false.

    Rich

      "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:4349c91d$1{at}w3.nls.net...
      None of those are a mandatory part of the boot process.

      Geo.
        "Rich"  wrote in message news:4349439c{at}w3.nls.net...
           No more or less than passwords, TLS/SSL, smart cards, tokens, =
or anything else someone wants to make a mandatory part of any process = they choose.

        Rich

          "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:434921c2$1{at}w3.nls.net...
          But the feature being discussed can not only "be used" for =
DRM, it can be used to FORCE DRM on those who don't want it and to =
prevent competition on the OS market by not allowing an OS that doesn't =
force drm to be used.

          Geo.
            "Rich"  wrote in message news:434839da$1{at}w3.nls.net...
               My objection to your use of the term DRM is that it =
doesn't apply and diverts the discussion away to off topic, often silly, =
emotionally charged claims.  A claim that something could be used for = DRM
could apply to anything as there is no limit to what someone might = use. 
Passwords can be used for DRM.  They are today.  TLS/SSL can be = used for
DRM.  It is today. Smartcards, tokens, or anything to identify = the entity
to which rights were granted can be used.

               None of this helps for secure boot whose purpose is to =
validate the software environment and has no need to identify the user = or
the machine.

            Rich

              "John Beckett"  =
wrote in message news:7roek156s13jun0lt9u808ahvmc20pbmrj{at}4ax.com...
              "Rich"  wrote in message
news::
              >    Your reply falls apart immediately after "as you well =
know".
              >  In fact you have it exactly backwards.

              Maybe you're answering in automatic mode??

              Just because I mentioned the terms "Geo" and
"DRM" in the =
same message
              does not mean I am supporting all or any of Geo's =
assertions re DRM.

              In fact, I was pointing out that trusted computing is =
capable of good
              things, and I predict that with the rising sophistication =
of malware,
              companies really will need trusted computing systems for =
their laptops if
              the laptops are allowed to connect to the normal company =
network.

              I claim that the same features of trusted computing that =
provide the
              benefit of secure remote access are also capable of =
providing DRM. I am
              not commenting on whether that is good or bad.

              I would appreciate a clear correction if I have made a =
mistake in the
              above (i.e. which words are wrong, and briefly why).

              > What you approve is up to you and if you use it can =
provide you with
              > a degree of trust not available without secure boot.

              I understand that.
              =20
              > Many of george's opinions on DRM are ...

              That's an issue for another thread, IMHO.

              John

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   I'm saying what I =
wrote.  Your=20
previous statement is irrelevant to your claims of DRM and also = false. =20
Your new fiction is nonsense too.
 
Rich
 

  "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
wrote=20
  in message news:434a407e{at}w3.nls.net...
  You are saying I can take a
pentium D =
machine and=20
  vista and have it boot without the special mode or you are claiming =
that and=20
  your definition of DRM are different somehow?
   
  Geo.
  

    "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:4349cae3{at}w3.nls.net...
      
Irrelevant to your =
claims of DRM=20
    and also false.
     
    Rich
     
    

      "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>=20">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>=20
      wrote in message news:4349c91d$1{at}w3.nls.net...
      None of those are a mandatory =
part of the=20
      boot process.
       
      Geo.
      

        "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:4349439c{at}w3.nls.net...
          
No more or less =
than=20
        passwords, TLS/SSL, smart cards, tokens, or anything else =
someone wants=20
        to make a mandatory part of any process they =
choose.
         
        Rich
         
        

          "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
wrote =
in message=20
          news:434921c2$1{at}w3.nls.net...
          But the feature being =
discussed can not=20
          only "be used" for DRM, it can be used to FORCE DRM on those =
who don't=20
          want it and to prevent competition on the OS market by not =
allowing an=20
          OS that doesn't force drm to be used.
           
          Geo.
          

            "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:434839da$1{at}w3.nls.net...
               My objection =
to your use=20
            of the term DRM is that it doesn't apply and diverts the =
discussion=20
            away to off topic, often silly, emotionally charged =
claims.  A=20
            claim that something could be used for DRM could apply to =
anything=20
            as there is no limit to what someone might use.  =
Passwords can=20
            be used for DRM.  They are today.  TLS/SSL can be =
used for=20
            DRM.  It is today. Smartcards, tokens, or anything to =
identify=20
            the entity to which rights were granted can be =
used.
             
               None of this =
helps for=20
            secure boot whose purpose is to validate =
the software=20
            environment and has no need to identify the user or the=20
            machine.
             
            Rich
             
            
              "John Beckett" <FirstnameSurname{at}com=">mailto:FirstnameSurname{at}compuserve.com.omit">FirstnameSurname{at}com=
puserve.com.omit>=20
              wrote in message news:7roek156s13=
jun0lt9u808ahvmc20pbmrj{at}4ax.com..."Rich"=20
              <{at}> wrote in message >   =20
              Your reply falls apart immediately after "as you well=20
              know".>  In fact you have it exactly=20
              backwards.Maybe you're answering in automatic=20
              mode??Just because I mentioned the terms
"Geo" and =
"DRM"=20
              in the same messagedoes not mean I am supporting all =
or any of=20
              Geo's assertions re DRM.In fact, I was pointing =
out that=20
              trusted computing is capable of goodthings, and I =
predict that=20
              with the rising sophistication of malware,companies =
really=20
              will need trusted computing systems for their laptops =
ifthe=20
              laptops are allowed to connect to the normal company=20
              network.I claim that the same features of
trusted=20
              computing that provide thebenefit of secure remote =
access are=20
              also capable of providing DRM. I amnot commenting on =
whether=20
              that is good or bad.I would appreciate a clear =
correction=20
              if I have made a mistake in theabove (i.e. which words =
are=20
              wrong, and briefly why).> What you
approve is =
up to you=20
              and if you use it can provide you with> a degree of =
trust=20
              not available without secure boot.I understand=20
              that. > Many of george's
opinions on DRM =
are=20
              ...That's an issue for another thread,=20
              =
IMHO.John=


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