Hello Alex,

>> Bin Li obviously has problems, there is no doubt about that as has
>> been documented by many people.  That doesn't mean that we have any
>> business fixing that problem, just as I would not want anyone in Z2,
>> or in Z3, or in Z4, or in Z5 fixing problems we may have in Zone 1.

> Yep, we have no business with fixing his problems, this is true, but

Thank you, that is correct.

> we cannot regard him as a valid fidonet sysop, and so we cannot accept
> his voice as valid and so we cannot accept the whole voting as valid.

You are being ridiculous and you know it.  No matter how you count the
votes, Ward lost.

Once again, because YOU didn't get your way, you are trying to invent a
reason to make the vote invalid.

And it shows.  And it doesn't work.

> P4 clearly states who can be regarded as a valid sysoip, this includes
> ZCs.

As I said, it wouldn't make a difference, Alex.  He still was voted O-U-T.
Ward was voted out by valid ZCs no matter how you count it.

>> Zone 5 had problems, and they took care of them.  Z6 will take care
>> of it's problems and we have no business trying to force our way of
>> doing things there.

> Yep. But while problems persist we cannot accept Z6C voice.

You are completely wrong and NOTHING you say can change this. Don't count
his voice if you like, Alex, Ward was still vote O-U-T :)

>> Your argument fails in other respects anyway.

>> 1 - At the time of the election Bin Li was present and voting as an
>> internet node.  That, at the time, was a temporary measure as he had
>> lost the use of his modem.

> So he stuffed his nodelist entry ? (no ip connectivity, but only phone
> number, which caused us an extra expences when trying to call there).

You should have routed your message to him, you KNEW his system was having
problems.  I know you are an itelligent fellow.. if your ZC says his system
will be down on such and such a day, or week, or month,  do you still
attempt to dial him directly ?? I don't think so :)

> Why should I we pay for this expencive international call when we could
> not send a mail ? Don't you think this is annoying behaviour of him ?

No, actually I think it is annoying behaviour on YOUR part :)  You knew his
system was having problems and still you attempted to dial him direct.

>> 2 - Had Bin Li been removed from the nodelist, had all of Zone 6
>> asked
>> to be removed from the nodelist, Ward would still have been removed by
>> vote of the present and voting ZCs. THAT is what counts.

> This is another question. Valid vote - valid result, invalid vote -
> invalid result. We have only invalid vote with invalid result.

No, we had a valid vote, and we have had a valid vote for a number of
months in which WARD was replaced.  It's indiputable that the present and
voting ZCs voted to remove him.  It's obvious you just don't like the
result! It's very funny that right now you have decided to wake up and
start pounding such nonsense from your keyboard :)

>> 3 - Ward's attempts to change policy in the way that he would have
>> changed it is what is FAR and AWAY against policy 4.

> This was just defensive measure from your ignoring P4. And now we
> have this blind alley ..

This is a ridiculous argument as well.. once again, you just don't like the
result :)  When you have something to say that makes sense, I will reply to
you again. Until then you will remain in my ignore list.

> PS. Well, after all this I don't believe anymore Fidonet has a
> future. Degradation passed too deep ... For the last year I haven't
> seen something positive all over international echoes, just
> permanent flame and personal attacks. It is hardly that someone
> could be attracted by this stuff ..

I don't know about that.. outside of the normal arguments and
misunderstandings, this last was propagated by Ward and one or two others. 
If I was a stranger looking in, I would see it for exactly what it is..
sour grapes.

Take care,
Janis

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