Mulling over LEE LOFASO to STEVE ASHER 11 Dec 2004

G'day Lee...

>LL>Martyrdom was once a hallmark of Christianity.  But today, there
>LL>are no more martyrs.

SA>Not too many in the Western "Christian" nations - at least not in
SA>Australia in my lifetime. That will change after the rapture & 
SA>during the reign of Antichrist, when noachide laws are enforced.

 LL> Er, after the "rapture" there will be no more
"believers".

Well, no "church age" believers, if the church age ends at the rapture.
However, there will be fellowservants & brethren of those who were killed
for the word of God & the testimony they held, plus the 144,000 servants
of God from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel, & the great multitude
from the nations which came out of great tribulation (Rev 6 & 7).

>LL>What Christians have done is to replace their faith with that of
>LL>a "civil religion".

SA>That is true... much of the emphasis these days is not on salvation by
SA>grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but on living a good life, obeying
SA>the commandments of men, being charitable etc.

 LL> IOW, a pagan religion.

Possibly, but they would be unlikely to identify as pagans, unless they
abandoned their Christian civil religion. Example - G W Bush considers
that Moslems worship the same God as Christians, which is erroneous, but
Bush probably doesn't identify as a pagan.


>SA>In any event, the Church is considered to begin on the day of
>SA>Pentecost in 32 AD,

>LL>Circa 29 AD to 32 AD.  Nobody knows exactly what year.

SA>That is why I put "considered" - the reference I was using (The
SA>Bible Topic Book Volume 1) gives a definite 32 AD, but I don't know 
SA>for certain all the details, & I am aware that there are variations 
SA>for the year of Christ's birth & subsequent events. Other sources 
SA>will "consider" other date and times, based on seasonal evidence 
SA>etc. It isn't my area of primary interest, but it is topical, so if 
SA>you have any relevent info, please post it.

 LL> In summary, the birth of Jesus was on December 25, 5 B.C.  This is
 LL> noted in Matthew 1:1-25, in an allegorical sense.  In order to be
 LL> considered "rabbi" or "teacher", Jesus had to
have attained the age
 LL> of 30. Therefore, his public ministry could not have begun earlier
 LL> than 26 A.D. Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried during the
 LL> period when Pontius Pilate was procurator, between 26 A.D. and 36
 LL> A.D.  Pentecost occurred roughly two months following Jesus' death
 LL> and resurrection.

The best answer I can find for the correct date of Jesus' birth is along
the lines of - "the Scriptures ... do not give us a precise date ...",
"No one really knows for sure when Jesus was born ...". I have no opinion
on the actual date ... I just go along with December 25th much as the 
"Queen's Birthday" is celebrated here in June, though her DOB is in April.

 LL> One can look at Revelation as having three parts -

 LL> 1. The escape (1st rapture)
 LL> 2. The second coming (2nd rapture, or resurrection)
 LL> 3. The establishment of the kingdom

 LL> The first rapture takes place before Antichrist takes power. The
 LL> second rapture takes place during the reign of Antichrist. The
 LL> establishment of the kingdom takes place after Antichrist. 

>LL>IOW, some Christians (true Christians deemed worthy) would
>LL>"escape" the trials and tribulations set to take place. Other
>LL>Christians would remain, until slaughtered by the forces of
>LL>Antichrist, thus "escaping" further persecution.

SA>That is "partial rapture", & has its adherents, but 1
Thess 4:15-17
SA>doesn't imply that a subset of saints will be left behind. As I
SA>understand it, the rapture ends the Church age, & marks the transition
SA>to the reign of antichrist, with its saints and martyrs.

 LL> The gospel accounts and St. Paul's account seem to be of different
 LL> events.  The gospel accounts seem to refer to true Christians
 LL> "escaping", before the trials and tribulations of Antichrist are
 LL> placed upon the world.  The letters of St. Paul seem to refer to a
 LL> "resurrection" taking place during the reign of Antichrist. 

>LL>Any other so-called Christians remaining after the slaughter would
>LL>not be Christians.  What follows is the end of the world, with no
>LL>living thing remaining.

SA>Not all life will end, for the days will be cut short by the return of
SA>Jesus Christ to stop the killing, as in Matthew 24:22.

 LL> "For if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be
 LL> saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

 LL> Notice it is the "household of God" who will be judged first - 

 LL> "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of
 LL> God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do
 LL> not obey the gospel of God?" - 1 Peter 4:17

 LL> IOW, those Christians who are true followers of Christ will escape
 LL> the trials and tribulations of Antichrist.  Those left behind will
 LL> die. 

 LL> "If you have repented your sins and are born again, you have been
 LL> washed in the blood of the lamb.  You are saved; worthy of both
 LL> heaven and the rapture of the church." - Jerry Falwell

 LL> Compare what Falwell said with the words of Jesus -

 LL> Matthew 10:37-38
 LL> Matthew 7:21-27
 LL> Luke 21:34-36
 LL> John 10:27-30

 LL> I wish it were as easy to get to heaven as Falwell says...

Hmmm... the only URL I can find attributing those words to Falwell is
at www.satansrapture.com/falwell.htm - I'd prefer to be able to verify
that he did say that. They are quoting Falwell from his "Thomas Rhodes
Baptist Church", but AFAIK, he is at "Thomas Road" - not
"Rhodes".

In any event, Falwell has restarted a "21st century resurrection of the
Moral Majority" called "The Moral Majority Coalition" to promote faith
and moral values. My interest will be in what "faith" and
"moral values"
such a coalition might promote, given that the original MM included
Catholics, Mormons, Evangelicals, Jews etc ( a real "Babylon" of belief).

I assume he / it will be amenable to introduction & enforcement of the
so-called "Noachide Laws", even if it ultimately leads to his beheading.

Cheers, Steve..

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