Hello Steve,

>SA>by beheading, which is described in Revelation 20:4 for those who
>SA>have the witness of Jesus and do not worship the beast or his image,
>SA>or do not receive his mark in their foreheads or hands in the
>SA>Tribulation.

>GP>If you abolish Xianity, you abolish Revelations, so that beheading
>GP>is certainly not applicable!

>SA>It is an exercise in futility. No matter how hard they try to eliminate
>SA>the saints and martyrs of Jesus, there will always be more.

>LL>Martyrdom was once a hallmark of Christianity.  But today, there
>LL>are no more martyrs.

SA>Not too many in the Western "Christian" nations - at least
not in Australia
SA>in my lifetime. That will change after the rapture & during the reign of
SA>Antichrist, when noachide laws are enforced.

Er, after the "rapture" there will be no more "believers".

>LL>What Christians have done is to replace their faith with that of
>LL>a "civil religion".

SA>That is true... much of the emphasis these days is not on salvation by
SA>grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but on living a good life, obeying
SA>the commandments of men, being charitable etc.

IOW, a pagan religion.

>SA>Revelation 13:7 permits the Beast to make war with the saints, and to
>SA>overcome them.

>LL>Christians, and the Church, have always undergone persecution.
>LL>Today is no different than yesterday.  However, there will be a
>LL>final, or last, persecution.

>SA>In any event, the Church is considered to begin on the day of
>SA>Pentecost in 32 AD,

>LL>Circa 29 AD to 32 AD.  Nobody knows exactly what year.

SA>That is why I put "considered" - the reference I was using
(The Bible Topic
SA>Book Volume 1) gives a definite 32 AD, but I don't know for certain all the
SA>details, & I am aware that there are variations for the year of Christ's
SA>birth & subsequent events. Other sources will
"consider" other dates and
SA>times, based on seasonal evidence etc. It isn't my area of primary interest,
SA>but it is topical, so if you have any relevent info, please post it.

In summary, the birth of Jesus was on December 25, 5 B.C.  This is noted
in Matthew 1:1-25, in an allegorical sense.  In order to be considered
"rabbi" or "teacher", Jesus had to have attained the age of 30.
Therefore, his public ministry could not have begun earlier than 26 A.D.
Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried during the period when Pontius
Pilate was procurator, between 26 A.D. and 36 A.D.  Pentecost occurred
roughly two months following Jesus' death and resurrection.

>SA>and to end with the Rapture, prior to the Tribulation.

>LL>Actually, there are *two* so-called "raptures".

>SA>It is under God's control, not man's.

>LL>The term "rapture" is very misleading.  A better
description would
>LL>be "escape".

SA>The wording in the KJV is "caught up", as in what I once saw a
SA>large raptor (wedgetail eagle) do to a rabbit in the bush. It was
SA>an impressive sight ... the rabbit had little warning of what was
SA>about to happen, & it was all over before we thought to get our
SA>cameras.

One can look at Revelation as having three parts -

1. The escape (1st rapture)
2. The second coming (2nd rapture, or resurrection)
3. The establishment of the kingdom

The first rapture takes place before Antichrist takes power.
The second rapture takes place during the reign of Antichrist.
The establishment of the kingdom takes place after Antichrist.

>LL>IOW, some Christians (true Christians deemed worthy) would
>LL>"escape" the trials and tribulations set to take place. Other
>LL>Christians would remain, until slaughtered by the forces of
>LL>Antichrist, thus "escaping" further persecution.

SA>That is "partial rapture", & has its adherents, but 1
Thess 4:15-17
SA>doesn't imply that a subset of saints will be left behind. As I
SA>understand it, the rapture ends the Church age, & marks the transition
SA>to the reign of antichrist, with its saints and martyrs.

The gospel accounts and St. Paul's account seem to be of different
events.  The gospel accounts seem to refer to true Christians
"escaping", before the trials and tribulations of Antichrist are
placed upon the world.  The letters of St. Paul seem to refer
to a "resurrection" taking place during the reign of Antichrist.

>LL>Any other so-called Christians remaining after the slaughter would
>LL>not be Christians.  What follows is the end of the world, with no
>LL>living thing remaining.

SA>Not all life will end, for the days will be cut short by the return of
SA>Jesus Christ to stop the killing, as in Matthew 24:22.

"For if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be
saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

Notice it is the "household of God" who will be judged first -

"For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God;
and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey
the gospel of God?" - 1 Peter 4:17

IOW, those Christians who are true followers of Christ will escape the
trials and tribulations of Antichrist.  Those left behind will die.

"If you have repented your sins and are born again, you have been
washed in the blood of the lamb.  You are saved; worthy of both heaven
and the rapture of the church." - Jerry Falwell

Compare what Falwell said with the words of Jesus -

Matthew 10:37-38
Matthew 7:21-27
Luke 21:34-36
John 10:27-30

I wish it were as easy to get to heaven as Falwell says...

--Lee


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