Mulling over LEE LOFASO to STEVE ASHER 09 Dec 2004

G'day Lee...

>SA>by beheading, which is described in Revelation 20:4 for those who 
>SA>have
>SA>the witness of Jesus and do not worship the beast or his image, or do
>SA>not receive his mark in their foreheads or hands in the Tribulation.

>GP>If you abolish Xianity, you abolish Revelations, so that beheading
>GP>is certainly not applicable!

SA>It is an exercise in futility. No matter how hard they try to eliminate
SA>the saints and martyrs of Jesus, there will always be more.

 LL> Martyrdom was once a hallmark of Christianity.  But today, there
 LL> are no more martyrs.

Not too many in the Western "Christian" nations - at least not in Australia
in my lifetime. That will change after the rapture & during the reign of
Antichrist, when noachide laws are enforced.

 LL>   What Christians have done is to replace their faith with that of 
 LL> a "civil religion".

That is true... much of the emphasis these days is not on salvation by
grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but on living a good life, obeying
the commandments of men, being charitable etc.

SA>Revelation 13:7 permits the Beast to make war with the saints, and to
SA>overcome them.

 LL> Christians, and the Church, have always undergone persecution.
 LL> Today is no different than yesterday.  However, there will be a
 LL> final, or last, persecution.

SA>In any event, the Church is considered to begin on the day of
SA>Pentecost in 32 AD,

 LL> Circa 29 AD to 32 AD.  Nobody knows exactly what year.

That is why I put "considered" - the reference I was using (The Bible Topic
Book Volume 1) gives a definite 32 AD, but I don't know for certain all the
details, & I am aware that there are variations for the year of Christ's
birth & subsequent events. Other sources will "consider"
other dates and
times, based on seasonal evidence etc. It isn't my area of primary interest,
but it is topical, so if you have any relevent info, please post it.

SA>and to end with the Rapture, prior to the Tribulation.

 LL> Actually, there are *two* so-called "raptures".

SA>It is under God's control, not man's.

 LL> The term "rapture" is very misleading.  A better description would
 LL> be "escape".

The wording in the KJV is "caught up", as in what I once saw a 
large raptor (wedgetail eagle) do to a rabbit in the bush. It was 
an impressive sight ... the rabbit had little warning of what was 
about to happen, & it was all over before we thought to get our 
cameras.

 LL> IOW, some Christians (true Christians deemed worthy) would 
 LL> "escape" the trials and tribulations set to take place. Other
 LL> Christians would remain, until slaughtered by the forces of
 LL> Antichrist, thus "escaping" further persecution.  

That is "partial rapture", & has its adherents, but 1 Thess 4:15-17
doesn't imply that a subset of saints will be left behind. As I
understand it, the rapture ends the Church age, & marks the transition
to the reign of antichrist, with its saints and martyrs.

 LL> Any other so-called Christians remaining after the slaughter would 
 LL> not be Christians.  What follows is the end of the world, with no 
 LL> living thing remaining.

Not all life will end, for the days will be cut short by the return of
Jesus Christ to stop the killing, as in Matthew 24:22.

Cheers, Steve..

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