Hi, Mark.
DJ> I wish that venom & carnage were both permently killed off, & the
DJ> sandman revert back to being the creep we all knew & loved as a
DJ> creep.
DH> You won't get an argument from me about Venom and/or Carnage.
DH> Quite frankly, I was incredibly sick of seeing both of them by the
DH> time I stopped buying the Spider-books.  You may get your wish
DH> with regards to the Sandman... although I don't know whether
DH> you'll see it in the Spider-man titles.  There was a rumour going
DH> around about him switching sides again and rejoining the Frightful
DH> Four over in a near-future issue of the "Fantastic Four"...  but
DH> with Scott Lobdell going or gone, that may go out the window as
DH> well.
MD> HEY!
MD> I like Venom and the Punisher (1980s-1990s version, not 2099) as
MD> anti-heroes.
     And the beauty is... you can continue to like them that way...
MD> It gives the reader (when the story is written properly) a chance
MD> to see exactly what "vigilantes" can be, instead of the "good
MD> little boy" image that Spiderman and Daredevil try to give the
MD> public.
     If that's what you're into.  I just don't happen to share your
enthusiasm for that type of character.  From my POV, I prefer a
"heroic" character to adhere to a certain code of conduct.  I have no
problem with villains who truly reform (see the original Swordsman,
the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver & Hawkeye)... but I have little time
for villains who decide they're heroes but don't effect any changes at
all in their M.O.  Self-proclaimed heroes who kill (for instance)
aren't really "heroes" at all in my books.
     That being said... I really used to like the Punisher when he was
a Spider-man villain.  Back during his early appearances... and even
up till the end of his first mini-series... he was still regarded as a
villain.  He was a very sympathetic character (having been driven over
the edge after watching his family being killed)... but that didn't
change the fact he was a villain.  Then the comic industry blurred the
distinction between good and evil... and suddenly Frank Castle falls
on the side of the good guys.  Sorry, but I just wasn't able to
get into that particular trend (making villains into villainous
heroes).
     Same goes for Venom.  He was poised to become the biggest threat
in Spidey's life since the original Green Goblin.  He was a genuine
threat to Spidey 'cuz not only did Eddie Brock have a bone to pick
with him...  but the symbiote was once worn by Spider-man and
abandoned when Peter Parker learned it was alive... so it was feeling
more than a little jilted too.  Couple that with the fact that because
Parker had once been attached to the symbiote, it didn't set his
spider-sense off...  and the fact that Venom knew his secret
identity... that should've made "Big V" THE Spidey-foe.  Instead,
Marvel decides to make a sadistic pseudo-hero out of him .  He starts appearing and guest-appearing everywhere... which
eventually led to over-exposure and eventually killed interest in him
(it happened to Ghost Rider that way too).
MD> Having the Sandman as an anti-hero in the Silver Sable comics also
MD> makes (a little) sense, as Silver Sable gave the Sandman, a chance
MD> to do two things he liked semi-legally: make money and beat people
MD> up.
      I don't necessarily disagree with you.  The Sandman was having
second thoughts about his status as a bad guy before Silver Sable came
into his life.  See the issue of "Marvel Two-In-One" where the Sandman
uses his powers to sneak into a hospital to share a beer with the
injured Thing.  It was the type of criminal reformation I prefer...
and his change in attitude was genuine and even led him to become an
Avenger for a time.
     However, the Marvel Universe does need classic villains like the
Sandman right now.  The Frightful Four just hasn't been the same
without him... nor was the Sinister Six.  They even hinted at the
possibility that the Sandman was backsliding into villain-dom in his
recent guest-appearance in "Marvel Team-Up".  As much as I like him as
a hero (in the truest sense... not like Venom or the Punisher), I have
always thought he made a better villain... and if that's where Marvel
decides to take him, I'm not going to complain.
MD> Having Venom become the "Lethal Avenger" was great, and a few of
MD> the mini-series that Marvel's put out have shown him to a great
MD> effect, IMO.
     I guess this, like most of this discussion, comes down to what
you're into.  I bought the first Venom mini-series and was very
unimpressed by it.  Consequently, I never bought another one.  I still
feel that Venom made a great hero... but a terrible hero.
MD> There is the problem, however, about how "nice" and "soft" both
MD> Venom and the Punisher have become ever since they've become
MD> "heroic".  It's true that they've become more "user friendly" over
MD> the years.  It is about time that people were shown what really
MD> goes on inside their minds, because - after all the smoke clears -
MD> they are both killers, as is Wolverine of the X-Men, Deadpool,
MD> Cable, and Bishop (also of the X-Men).
     And it's that fact alone which prevents me from enjoying (or
generally even buying) comics featuring them anymore.  I just cannot
refer to characters who routinely kill as "heroes".  It's just not in
me...  Heck, I had to really hold my nose to buy the "Heroes For
Hire" issues which first guest-starred the Punisher and then Deadpool.
Let's put it this way, over the past 15 years, I've dropped an awful
lot of series after an appearance or guest-appearance by any of the
characters you mentioned.  I dropped the "New Mutants" with #86...
because there was another gun-totting moron on the last page (it
turned out to be Cable).  I dropped "Guardians of the Galaxy" because
instead of showcasing the 30th Century... it became a repository for
the same tired "super-cool" crap as was in the 20th Century books
(Wolverine's descendant & the Punisher's legacy are examples).  I
dropped "New Warriors" in it's first year because the Punisher
appeared.  Same goes for "Deathlok" & "Secret Defenders".  After
"Maximum Carnage", I was so sick of Venom, I stopped buying the
Spider-titles.  I dropped the old Iron Man series for a time after
Venom made a guest-appearance.  I dropped the old Captain America
series during the early "Capwolf" issues (normally I'll wait until a
story's conclusion to stop buying), partially because the book
stunk (that story particularly so)...  but also because it was just
another dumb excuse for Wolverine & Cable to appear.  Currently, there
are still series that I won't touch... like any of the X-books or
their spin-offs.  I don't even buy the Bat-books... unless they
crossover with another series I'm buying.  Of the 4 series Event
Comics are revamping for Marvel, the only one I know I won't be trying
will be "the Punisher".
     The problem, from my perspective, is that we've already seen
what's "in their heads" and there just isn't any more to it.
MD> I think that both Venom and the Punisher were both Spiderman
MD> villains, right?
     Originally, yes.
MD> Also, haven't Venom, Punisher, and Wolverine all fought both the
MD> Incredible Hulk and Captain America?
     Oh... very likely.  Those 3 characters (along with Ghost Rider)
appeared EVERYWHERE for the longest time... so they probably did
encounter the Hulk and Captain America at some point.
Talk to you later.
David
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