Mulling over George Pope to Steve Asher 09 Oct 2005

SA>  GP> Of course not!  I was baptized a Mennonite, but have since studied
SA>  GP> enough to learn the truths behyind Christianity!
SA>
SA> And what truths would those be, in your view?

 GP> 1. There is no basis to claim ANYONE is Messiah("Christ" from
 GP> Greek) 

OK, so passages such as Daniel 9:25 & 26 would not point to anyone
as being Messiah? ("Know therefore and understand, that from the
going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [...] shall
Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" ). Of course, there are
many passages relevant to the identity of the Messiah.

 GP> 2. The story of the virgin birth of a half-man, half-god
 GP> being who was to die to take away the sins of mankind originated
 GP> in Persian mythology centuries before the Jesus story is to have
 GP> taken place (lookup: MITHRA) 

OK, so this is one of your "truths" behind Christianity. If Persian
mythology is behind Christianity, then likewise it is behind Judaism,
where scriptures such as Zechariah 12 point to the house of David and
Jerusalem looking upon "me, whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him..."

You seek to discredit Christianity by the use of your "truths", but
think through the consequences, for if you succeed, you also imperil
the Jews in the process.

 GP> 3. The covenant with Israel was an ETERNAL one

It will be honored, even if Israel rejected the Redeemer. It may
well be eternal, but God was well aware that the Jews would forsake
him and break his covenant. (Deuteronomy 31:16).

 GP> 4. too many mistranslations in the Xian scriptures

Can you provide some examples of these "mistranslations in the
Xian scriptures"?

SA> SA>  GP> So why did God give the Mosaic laws and at that time say
SA> SA> they were
SA> SA>  GP> NOT too difficult to keep in their entirety?
SA>
SA> SA> Where did God say that?

 GP> About 5-8 chapters before the end -- I don't have a concordance
 GP> here, and too sick to get up and go into the other room to read
 GP> through the last bunch of chapters to find it. . . Remind me again
 GP> & hopefully I'll be able to find it when I'm feeling better.

OK.

 GP> But doesn't it seem logical to you?  Why would God give a bunch of
 GP> laws that had no meaning/basis in practical reality?

A very good question. The effect of the "Mosaic Law" is to render us
all guilty, as we are sinful and unable to all that the Law requires,
which is perfection.

SA>  GP> In Deuteronomy, somewhere near the end, in Moses' last
SA>  GP> discourse/addressing Israel.

SA> I had a quick butcher's last night, & I didn't see anything
SA> that implied that.

 GP> It doesn't "imply"; it states "and these are not too
difficult for
 GP> thee..." 

Ah well, when you are up to locating the relevant passage ... in the mean
time, as Moses was near death, he knew what the Jews would do ... rather
than keeping the law, they would be even more rebellious and corrupt
than during his life, and would provoke the Lord to anger.

 GP> What's a quick butcher's?

A quick butcher's hook - rhyming slang - a look. Same as a Captain Cook.

SA>  GP> Because, even though they CAN be kept in their entirety, God makes
SA>  GP> concession to human nature that they WON'T necessarily be so.
SA>
SA> Oh, and do you know of anyone who has kept them in their entirety,
SA> apart from Jesus Christ?

 GP> Where did I say that?

It is a question, not a a quote. Do you know of anyone who has kept
the laws in their entirety?

 GP> According to the prophets, "there is none righteous, NO, NOT
 GP> ONE"(emphasis added)

 GP> None means no-one (not even Jesus)

It is a good idea to read things that are "according to the prophets"
in context ... try reading a number of the preceding and subsequent
verses.

 GP> And the Greek original of the Last Supper(a passover seder) bears
 GP> this out, in that the word used for bread that Jesus broke and ate
 GP> refers to yeast-based bread (absolutely forbidden anywhere in
 GP> Jewish habitations during Passover week!)

Do you sincerely believe that Jesus Christ committed a sin and thus
is unable to save you? Is it possible that your source is flawed?

 GP> & where did anything I said suggest I would know anyone 100%
 GP> perfect?  Or that there ever would be someone 100% perfect?
 GP> God said that it's POSSIBLE to keep the Torah in its entirety --
 GP> IMO, that includes the components that speak of repentance/mercy 
 GP> (with full atonement, it is AS IF one has kept it perfectly)

Where did God say that it is possible for sinful man to "keep the
Torah in its entirety" or words to that effect?

SA>  GP> The Law includes the ability to seek atonement, and it also
SA>  GP> includes God's mercy in judging favorably. (cf. Jesus' parable of
SA>  GP> the shrewd manager)
SA>
SA> On what basis can someone seek atonement, in your view?

 GP> Not my view, the Bible's: the basis is SINCERE contrition at one's
 GP> having fallen short, and one's sincere turning towards God and
 GP> REPENTING of one's sins (AND sinful predispositions)

 GP> (to repent means to utterly turn one's self AWAY from the old way
 GP> of sinning unto a righteous outlook(to love mercy, justice, and to
 GP> seek God in all one's ways)

 GP> Ok, it is my view, too, but it doesn't originate with me!

Your choice of words ("Xtian"), your "Mithra" myth,
your arguments
concerning the Messiah / Jesus Christ suggest to me that you have
found a god, but not the God of the Bible.

Cheers, Steve..

---