Mulling over MARNIE TROSCLAIR to STEVE ASHER 08 May 2005

Hi Marnie,

SA> The image of the beast may not be autonomous, but to fulfil   
SA> its "job description" it must be (a) able to speak, and   
SA> (b) able to kill all those who refuse to worship it.   

 MT> I'm going to wing this one without taking a close look at the  
 MT> relevant passages.  My first inclination is to say that you've  
 MT> misinterpreted something.

That is possible - the image of the beast in Revelation 13:15 has
the ability to speak, and the ability to cause those who do not
worship it to be killed...

 MT> Nebuchadnezzar made an image, a statue, or idol, and, if I 
 MT> understand it correctly, demanded people worship it, or they 
 MT> were to be put to death. It wasn't the idol, that was doing the 
 MT> killing. It was the king or his men.  

...it may be that soldiers, police etc are the agents who kill on
behalf of the image, but the image is the controller of the kill
process, either in its own right or through proxies - much as
Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin etc didn't personally carry out 
the bulk of the killings themselves, but used the apparatus of the
State to do the dirty work.

 MT> So...  
 MT> I'm inclined to think that Nebuchadnezzar might be viewed as   
 MT> "King of Babylon" who creates the "image of the
beast" to which   
 MT> everyone must pay tribute.. or face death.    

Again, as above with the killings, it is the people who dwell on the
Earth who make the image to the (first) beast, but it is the second
beast who has the power to give life to the image.

 MT> Taking that into the modern day, it has NOTHING to do with Saddam  
 MT> Hussein.  NOTHING.  He can't force the world to pay tribute to   
 MT> any "image of the beast."    

Saddam Hussein isn't in a position to do much of anything; his handlers
turned on him after he was no longer of any use to them.

SA> Since it is the second beast who gives life to the image of  
SA> the beast & empowers it to speak & to kill,   

 MT> I don't know what kind of parlor trick Nebuchadnezzar used to 
 MT> make his statue, his idol, talk, but I doubt it was anything as   
 MT> sophisticated as the animatronics at Disneyland.  

I would share the same doubt, but again, that is from my experience
of living in the era of television, special effects, etc.

 MT> Nor do I think it would be as convincing today, in an era when 
 MT> movies are made to appear as though they were filmed in a galaxy, 
 MT> far, far away. Nebuchadnezzar's idol probably wouldn't impress us 
 MT> as much as an R2D2.    

SA> it is reasonable to assume that the second beast gives directions   
SA> to the image as to what it is to speak & how it is to kill,   

 MT> More like put words in the mouth of the image! 

That is how I might comprehend the scenario, but it is a limitation
based on my experience and knowledge, rather than a limitation on 
how the prophecy will be fulfilled. It is quite possible that the
second beast is using the image of the beast as an advanced 
ventriloquist's dummy, or that it "speaks" a script much as
Ananova (apparently) "reads" the news (I've never watched "her"
reading the news, but I have visited the site, rarely).

 MT> That's what Nebuchadnezzar would have to have done. He would have 
 MT> used some kind of contraption to make it appear as though the 
 MT> big idol was speaking.   

 MT> I read that this was done in other temples as well. I think 
 MT> you've lost perspective on what these passages were describing.  

It is quite possible, but I don't want to be limited by my understanding
of how things will be done. It would seem silly to me to build an airstrip
in the hope that some flying thing would land & bring me cargo, but children
hang stockings by the fireplace in the hope that the fat man will rock up
in a flying sleigh & bring goodies down the chimney.

 MT> Now, if you were to try to interpret them in terms of what is 
 MT> achievable today, I suppose you could create a killer robot and 
 MT> program it to speak, but you'd still be putting the words into its 
 MT> mouth. It will remain that way until AI enables robots to do this 
 MT> without the aid of humans. BUT I don't see that as happening any 
 MT> time soon. Further, I don't think that's what these passages in 
 MT> Revelation are describing. I think they're talking about creating 
 MT> a god, fooling the world into believing that, and forcing people 
 MT> to worship or face death. But not at the hands of some robot.  
 MT> These passages sound more like the kind of force a Roman Empire 
 MT> might use to get everyone on the "same page."    

In that case, don't dwell too much on how the image will be created,
but skip straight to initiation, for that is exactly the scenario
that the various adherents of New Age thought are working towards.

(A lot snipped)

 MT> And, again, I turn to the example of initiation. To fully
 MT> appreciate what I mean by that word, you might have to undergo
 MT> one. But, you can gain some valuable insight as to how
 MT> initiations have been performed over the centuries and how 
 MT> they impact people, and why they're performed, by doing some
 MT> research. I recommend it, because I think what we're talking
 MT> about here involves initiation.       

While it hasn't been brought up in this thread, it is inherent to
the "earth changes" that are said to be coming as part of "planetary
cleansing" and (claimed) transformation from the Piscean Age to
the Aquarian Age.

 MT> The act of initiation involves some goal or goals. It might be   
 MT> performed with the intent of bringing about cerain desired changes 
 MT> in an individual or group. To initiate is to start, to begin, and 
 MT> in one sense, you can see that this appearance of the "image of the
 MT> beast" occurs around the time of the end of one millennium and  
 MT> the beginning of another. You might link this initiation to the  
 MT> attempt to bring about a "new age." In fact, as I type these
 MT> words, I recall talk of a Luciferic initiation being linked to
 MT> the "new age" movement.

Snap! You may also be familiar with "binding ceremonies", where people's
physical identities will be ceremonially linked to their "digital
identities". In such a scenario, the taking of a mark certifying one's
identity to take part in the buying & selling process ("cashless",
"online"?) would not be perceived as a threat, but welcomed and
embraced as an initiation into the New Age.

 MT> Now, Steve, the most convincing "god" is the one that's going to   
 MT> give you the feel that it's constantly watching over your shoulder,
 MT> watching your every move, intimate with the decisions you make,  
 MT> and your reasoning. It would know the details of your life, how
 MT> you spend your time, your likes and dislikes, your friends, your
 MT> favorite foods, how much you will spend on luxury items, where
 MT> you go and with whom, etc. etc. Technology is making this  
 MT> possible for an elite priesthood who are working behind the 
 MT> scenes, screens, curtain. And they could create a pretty 
 MT> convincing "Almighty Oz." I'm not sure Toto would be very 
 MT> effective in revealing the perpetrators of the ruse. But, if you 
 MT> think about it, and do a little research... you may be able to 
 MT> figure it out on your own.  

Are there "perpetrators of the ruse" who are actually conspiring
(in the hatching and plotting sense), or are they simply "breathing
together" in the sense that Marilyn Ferguson describes in "The
Aquarian Conspiracy", with no core "perpetrators". They will all
(at least at the lower levels, and as high up as possible) most
likely sincerely believe that they are working for the good of
mankind and the planet, and not see themselves as part of anything
evil or destructive.

Cheers, Steve..

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