RB> then you can objectify people. For  instance, I know a kid
RB> who violated his parole (he was arrested for drugs)  because
RB> he stole a can of beans from a grocery store. After getting
So he knowingly took the chance of going back to jail
for a can of beans and paid the price?  If he was
hungry there are dozens of places to get a meal in any
town.  Almost any church, mosque, synagogue or other
house of worship will, if not offer food (and most
times help finding shelter and work) be able to point
you to the right place.
RB> someone to do? Go to a homeless shelter and tell 
RB> them that he still doesn't have a job (a condition of
RB> parole)? 
My ignorance is showing again but I thought one of the
things a convict had to do before getting parole was to
show he at least had a job waiting.  Dumping known
criminals on the street w/o them showing they have some
way to provide for themselves almost ensures that they
will return to crime.
RB> that an individual is good or bad? Again,  I know someone
RB> who was a fine upstanding citizen, from your perspective,
RB> was in 
RB> college, got straight A's, studying to be a lawyer. This
RB> person decided that  they wanted to try acid on night at a
RB> Grateful Dead show and accidentally  bought from an
RB> undercover cop. Now that person is in prison.  
Couldn't have much of "a fine upstanding citizen",
after all he committed a felony.  Sorry but fine
upstanding citizens don't go out and buy acid from
anyone.
Everyone knows what the risk are of speeding.  Everyone
knows if they get caught they stand a very good chance
of paying a fairly large fine, getting points on their
license and having their insurance rates go up.  Now if
they don't want all this to happen they drive the speed
limit.
Everyone knows what the risk are of buying drugs.
Everyone knows if they get caught the stand a very good
chance of being arrested, being put in jail, paying a
fine and/or doing community service and/or doing time.
Now if they don't want this to happen all they have to
do is NOT buy drugs.
One of my favorite sayings is; You's pay's your money,
you's takes your chances.
RB> It is very superficial to assume that morality runs exactly
RB> parallel with the  laws in a country at any given time. 
But if you took morality out of the law you would have
almost no law.  I heard an example just today.  In some
societies (Middle and South West Asia mostly) it is
perfectly legal for a father to kill his own children.
Now w/o morality how can we say this is wrong?  Who are
we to use the law to force our morality on a person of
another culture? 
See the problem?  No morality in the law sucks and too
much morality in the law sucks.
TR> Stigmatization is part of that price until that person has given some 
TR> clue that they can be trusted to do what is right and legal. They 
RB> According to the Constitution, punishment is limited. In
RB> other words, the  penalty for a crime is set in law.
RB> Stigmatization is not part of that  punishment. So while it
RB> might be unavoidable, do not assume that it is okay.  
It may not be a written part of the punishment but it
has been part of it since the beginning of time.  One
of the reasons a lot of people didn't do drugs before
the 60's was the stigma that was attached to being
arrested for drugs.  The proof is the huge increase in
drug use in the 60's when that stigma evaporated and
even became a badge of honor.
TR> know it. So, why is stigmatization wrong? Do you maintain friendships 
TR> with people who lie to you, cheat you, or steal from you? I think we 
RB> Such hypocritical crap! The whole government lies and cheats
RB> and steals from  you and me and everyone else every day.
You have to look at the whole picture.  Every
government since the beginning of time has done the
same.  From the time when the head man in the cave got
a bigger share of the mammoth steak up through the
monarchies to today.
RB> Where is the punishment for THAT? Or is 
You slap yourself and I'll slap myself and the
government will be punished .
RB> cited by several international human rights groups
RB> (including Amnesty  International) for the miserable shape
If you check the reason Amnesty International is
urinated off is the fact that we still use the death
penalty.
RB> own prortection)... in other words, a person goes to prison
RB> and learns how to  become a better and harder criminal. 
Has been and always will be.  The only way prisons are
going to work is to move them back to the old ways.
Make it a REALLY nasty place.  Some place where you
would rather work at Kroger and struggle to make a
living than sell drugs and take a chance of going to
that hell called prison.
If you look at jail as some place that isn't much
rougher than the street where you live and you get free
stuff and can even learn something Kroger really starts
looking sucky.
RB> Let me guess - no one you have ever loved has ever gone to
RB> prison before. Oh,  wait, I forgot, GOOD PEOPLE like you
I don't know about him but I have had relatives and
friends who went to jail.  In some cases it scared the
sh@t out of them and it was the last time.  In others
they have been in and out for years.
                      Remember:  Freedom isn't Free!
--- timEd-B11
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