On 08 Apr 98  07:27:46, David Harding said this to Steven Turner.
It had Something to do with "Re: Green Arrow?".
DH> Hi, Stephen.
DH> 
ST> What kind of monstrous writer/artist team would have a character's
ST> ARMS ripped off at the shoulders??? You call THIS entertainment??
ST> You call THIS good "character development"?? I call it >!!
DH> 
DH> And what you're calling "sick" NEVER happened.  He didn't get his
DH> arms ripped off.  He didn't take Superman up on his offer to
DH> amputate his arms.  He removed his arm from the device and it
DH> exploded.
DH> 
ST> Well, ex-CUSE me!!! This is SOOO much better than getting his arms
ST> "ripped" off!
DH> 
DH>      It was meant as a clarification.
It STILL sounds grisly!!
ST> Dude, when this character was in his prime, stuff like that didn't
ST> happen!
DH> 
DH>      I'm afraid that was then... and this is now.  You admitted that
DH> you hadn't bought comics regularly in over a decade.  If the old-guard
DH> aren't going to stick around and show support for "the old ways",
DH> those "old ways" are eventually going to give-way to something else...
DH> which they evidently have.
To the greater detriment of comics as we knew them....!
Just imagine if somebody heavily altered the legend of the Three Musketeers, 
or Luke Skywalker....Capatin Blood? It just wouldn't work, and I imagine
that, if you were present during the silver age, when the REAL refinements
were originally made to these characters, the present state of affairs would 
hit you the very same way it's been hitting me....as HERESY!! (g)
ST> When did Jadarowsky ever start writing the breakdowns for these
ST> things?
DH> 
DH>      Who is Jadarowsky... and how does he/she/it fit into our
DH> conversation?
Jadarowsky was the director/producer of a very violent "head" western called 
"El Topo", which had more blood per frame than ANY Sam Peckinpah or Paul
Verhoeven movie!!
Haven't heard from him since, either. 
Thank God.
ST> Why couldnt they just have Ollie getting old and infirm, passing
ST> on the mantle gently to his son, (BTW, where DID his son COME
ST> from!?) instead of THIS El Topo bull****??
DH> 
DH> Consider what DC was trying to do.  Ollie Queen, like Hal Jordan,
DH> wasn't a young guy anymore.  DC wanted to introduce a younger
DH> generation Green Arrow (seeing as just about every other major DC
DH> 
ST> Always a mistake. Remember Robin? Speedy? Wertham? (g)
DH> 
DH>      Remember Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Ray Palmer, Katar & Shayera
DH> Hol, and the silver age revamps of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and
DH> yes, even Green Arrow?  They were all a product of DC wanting to
DH> introduce a younger generation of characters to a new generation of
DH> fans.  Using your arguement... that was all a mistake.
 
How? The kids of the sixties were VERY different from the kids of the late
thirties and all through the forties. The culture had changed significantly, 
since most of the heroes had been created to bolster patriotism, which
wasn't so important in the sixties....Science and science FICTION
was...witness TV of the era....Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, Star Trek, Lost
In Space, Thriller....Mr. Wizard....it was all reflected in the adventures
of The Flash, Superman, Adam Strange, Fantastic Four, Ant-Man, Atomic
Knights, Metal Men, etc....
Those transformations were almost mandatory...today's aren't. They're just
whimsical!
DH>      I'm not sure what you mean by "Remember Robin? Speed? Wertham?".
DH> Are you suggesting that the only characters worthy of replacing an
DH> existing veteran is his/her sidekick?  
Considering how much better Batman was without Robin, I'd say YES!! Green
Arrow worked much better without Speedy as well! Revamping Robin into the
more mature Nightwing improved the character IMMENSELY, in my opinion,
(although I still don't like his TT relationship with Starfire!)
DH> existing veteran is his/her sidekick?  Or is it that the only way to
DH> introduce a younger generation of characters is through the
DH> introduction of a sidekick?
Hardly. The only teen sidekicks that ever worked, to my mind, were the
Marvel kids and Kid Flash, who is now THE Flash! You could see Wally
learning in every Infantino/Broome adventure he shared with his mentor!
DH>      Who the heck is Wertham?
Man, you ARE from the latter egenration, aren't you?! Dr. Wertham, Frederic
Wertham, was the bane of all comicdom. He wrote a book called "Seduction of
the Innocent" where he went after comics with a vengeance! He cited titles
like Superman and Captain Marvel as "violent and subversive", leading to
juvenile delinquency in minors. He especially was fond of pointing out the
homoerotic possibilities of Batman and Robin: the fact that here was a grown 
man and a young boy in leotards and capes, Robin in hot pants and elfin
shoes and a YELLOW cape, riding around at night in a two seat automobile,
ostensibly to catch crooks, but WE all knew better!! He went after TV,
too....citing "Bonanza" as another example of this sort of thing, due to its 
lack of womenfolk on the Ponderosa!
You can probably find the book in your local library. Read it...it's REALLY
funny in parts!!
DH> character has one).  Are people going to give Connor Hawke a fair
DH> shake at being Green Arrow or are they gonna start WHINING about
DH> why the writers chose to retire Ollie (and I've seen plenty of
DH> that around here over the last year or so...  and that was after
DH> Ollie Queen's supposed DEATH)...  who, they're still convinced has
DH> a few good years in him yet?  I think we both know the answer.
DH> 
ST> No, I don't think we do! Sometimes it's not good to mess with
ST> something that was done well.
DH> 
DH>      I think we do know the answer... and I think there are a couple
DH> people in this conference who have already answered that question
DH> (including yourself...).
DH> 
DH>      Your right though... it's not always good to mess with something
DH> that was done well.  Unfortunately for Ollie Queen...  I don't see
DH> that as necessarily being the case.  I think Connor Hawke has lived up
DH> to the legacy laid down by his father... and I think, given a chance,
DH> he can be every bit the Green Arrow Ollie was too.  It'll be
DH> interesting to see what plans Kevin Smith has for both Green Arrows
DH> (which rumours say he does) when he takes over the book.  My hope is
DH> that his obvious love for Ollie Queen doesn't blind him to the
DH> potential of Connor Hawke...  and he, at the very least, respects his
DH> place in the DCU.  I have no problem with the return of the old Green
DH> Arrow... so long as it doesn't impact negatively on the current Green
DH> Arrow.
We shall see, shan't we...?
--- Renegade v5-11 Exp
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