From: "Rich" 

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   This discussion has nothing to do with the ribbon as we are not =
discussing Office.

Rich

  "Rich Gauszka"  wrote in message =
news:4592de88$1{at}w3.nls.net...
  The problem ( for me at least ) is that Microsoft has decided to =
replace the menu/toolbar with the ribbon design and forcefeed us the =
ribbon paradigm. When one changes the interface the excuse of = consistency
seems irrational

  http://www.infoq.com/news/2006/11/Office-UI-License
  In order to promote the ribbon design as a replacement for menus and =
toolbars, Microsoft has decided to license the Office 2007 User = Interface
including the new "ribbon paradigm". One of the primary = reasons
is to promote a consistent look and feel across all Windows = applications
that want to use the ribbon paradigm.

  What made the menu and toolbar paradigm so effective is that it is =
familiar to all users. No matter what application one used, the menus = and
toolbars essentially worked the same. In order for the ribbon = paradigm to
be effective, it needs to be just as consistent and = ubiquitous.

  Currently the only way for developers to use the ribbon paradigm is to =
hand roll their own version. Microsoft fears that this will result in =
several inconsistent variants, so they have decided to share the user =
interface by publishing a publish design guidelines for developers.=20

  The guidelines will require a license agreement, though it is royalty =
free. Any application, even ones not running on Windows will be able to =
use the ribbon paradigm without fear of IP lawsuits. The exception is =
applications that directly compete with the core Office products, namely =
Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, and Access.

  Impressions from the Channel 9 interview, suggest that Microsoft isn't =
really concerned about the ribbon paradigm as a revenue source. Rather, =
they want to take over from Apple as the thought leaders for the next =
generation of user interfaces. Expecting that other companies are going =
to copy the ribbon design anyways, and that bad copies will hurt the =
reputation of Microsoft Office, they decided the best course of action = is
to just make it easy to copy it the right way.

  When asked if developers can implement ribbon-like interfaces that =
work differently but have the same underlying concept, Microsoft has = said
no. Microsoft has never before been this serious about enforcing = this
level of consistency before. Unlike past guidelines, mandatory =
requirements are legally mandatory according to the license agreement. =
While they are there specifically to ensure a minimum level of user =
experience, some developers are certain to dislike the idea of being =
forced to abide by the guidelines.=20

    "Rich"  wrote in message news:4592d20f$1{at}w3.nls.net...
       Game vs. File doesn't matter as there is no Edit or View.  What =
matters is that some of these apps have no menus and some of them other =
menus.  It is not uncommon for non-document based applications in =
particular not to use the File/Edit/View paradigm.

    Rich

      "John Beamish"  wrote in message =
news:op.tk75vjufm6tn4t{at}dellblack.wlfdle.phub.net.cable.rogers.com...
      You might also have quoted Ralph Waldo Emerson:  a foolish =
consistency is =20
      the hobgobblin of little minds!  (Not that I would necessarily =
agree with =20
      you in this case.)

      Along with Solitare there is, btw, no File/Edit/View in Hearts.  =
OTOH ... =20
      Spider has (as do Hearts and Solitaire) a "Game" menu option and =
in Spider =20
      one of the Game menu items is "Save this game..." so a =
counter-argument =20
      could be made that while Spider doesn't have "File", the
"Save..." =
option =20
      appears under a menu item that should have been named "File".  =
"File", =20
      almost invariably, has always had "new" and
"Exit" (you'll find =
both those =20
      under "Game").  Spider also has "undo" (under
"Game") while Word =
has =20
      "undo" under "Edit".

      IOW, I think this is one of those cases where the consistency =
isn't =20
      foolish and, in the broader context, software is the better for =
it.

      On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 22:08:43 -0500, Rich  wrote:

      >    Solitare.  MSN Messenger.  Windows Media Player.  Yahoo! =
Messenger.  =20
      > AOL Instant Messenger.  That's five.
      >
      > Rich
      >
      >   "Geo."  wrote in message =
news:4591cdd1{at}w3.nls.net...
      >   "Rich"  wrote in message news:45900382{at}w3.nls.net...
      >
      >   >> Every program on earth does not have File Edit View but =
that is =20
      > besides
      >   >> the point.
      >
      >   Name one. Name one popular program on Mac, Linux, or Windows =
that =20
      > doesn't
      >   have File/Edit/View.
      >
      >   Geo.

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   This
discussion has =
nothing to do with=20
the ribbon as we are not discussing Office.
 
Rich
 

  "Rich Gauszka" <gauszka{at}dontspamhotmail.commailto:gauszka{at}dontspamhotmail.com">gauszka{at}dontspamhotmail.com
A>>=20
  wrote in message news:4592de88$1{at}w3.nls.net...
  The problem ( for me at least ) is =
that Microsoft=20
  has decided to replace the menu/toolbar with the ribbon design and =
forcefeed=20
  us the ribbon paradigm. When one changes the interface the excuse of=20
  consistency seems irrational
   
  http://www.i" target="new">http://www.i=">http://www.infoq.com/news/2006/11/Office-UI-License">http://www.i=
nfoq.com/news/2006/11/Office-UI-License
  
  In order to promote the ribbon design as a replacement for menus =
and=20
  toolbars, Microsoft has decided to license the Office 2007 User =
Interface=20
  including the new "ribbon paradigm". One of the primary reasons is to =
promote=20
  a consistent look and feel across all Windows applications that want =
to use=20
  the ribbon paradigm.
  What made the menu and toolbar paradigm so effective is that it is =
familiar=20
  to all users. No matter what application one used, the menus and =
toolbars=20
  essentially worked the same. In order for the ribbon paradigm to be =
effective,=20
  it needs to be just as consistent and ubiquitous.
  Currently the only way for developers to use the ribbon paradigm is =
to hand=20
  roll their own version. Microsoft fears that this will result in =
several=20
  inconsistent variants, so they have decided to share the user =
interface by=20
  publishing a publish design guidelines for developers. 
  The=20">http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/office/aa973809.aspx">The=20
  guidelines will require a license agreement, though it is royalty =
free.=20
  Any application, even ones not running on Windows will be able to use =
the=20
  ribbon paradigm without fear of IP lawsuits. The exception is =
applications=20
  that directly compete with the core Office products, namely Microsoft =
Word,=20
  Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, and Access.
  Impressio=">http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=3D259548">Impressio=
ns=20
  from the Channel 9 interview, suggest that Microsoft isn't really=20
  concerned about the ribbon paradigm as a revenue source. Rather, they =
want to=20
  take over from Apple as the thought leaders for the next generation of =
user=20
  interfaces. Expecting that other companies are going to copy the =
ribbon design=20
  anyways, and that bad copies will hurt the reputation of Microsoft =
Office,=20
  they decided the best course of action is to just make it easy to copy =
it the=20
  right way.
  When asked if developers can implement ribbon-like interfaces that =
work=20
  differently but have the same underlying concept, Microsoft has said =
no.=20
  Microsoft has never before been this serious about enforcing this =
level of=20
  consistency before. Unlike past guidelines, mandatory requirements are =
legally=20
  mandatory according to the license agreement. While they are there=20
  specifically to ensure a minimum level of user experience, some =
developers are=20
  certain to dislike the idea of being forced to abide by the =
guidelines.=20
  
  

    "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:4592d20f$1{at}w3.nls.net...
       Game
vs. File doesn't =
matter as=20
    there is no Edit or View.  What matters is that some of =
these apps=20
    have no menus and some of them other menus.  It is not uncommon =
for=20
    non-document based applications in particular not to use the =
File/Edit/View=20
    paradigm.
     
    Rich
     
    
      "John Beamish" <JLBeamish{at}rogers.com>">mailto:JLBeamish{at}rogers.com">JLBeamish{at}rogers.com>
=
wrote in=20
      message news:op.tk75vjufm6tn4t{at}dellblack.wlfdle.phub.net.cable.rogers.com..=
.You=20
      might also have quoted Ralph Waldo Emerson:  a foolish =
consistency=20
      is  the hobgobblin of little minds!  (Not that I =
would=20
      necessarily agree with  you in this
case.)Along =
with=20
      Solitare there is, btw, no File/Edit/View in Hearts.  OTOH =
... =20
      Spider has (as do Hearts and Solitaire) a "Game"
menu option =
and in=20
      Spider  one of the Game menu items is "Save
this game..." =
so a=20
      counter-argument  could be made that while Spider doesn't =
have=20
      "File", the "Save..." option 
appears under a menu item =
that=20
      should have been named "File". 
"File",  almost =
invariably,=20
      has always had "new" and "Exit" (you'll find both
those  =
under=20
      "Game").  Spider also has "undo" (under
"Game") while Word =
has =20
      "undo" under
"Edit".IOW, I think this is one of those =
cases=20
      where the consistency isn't  foolish and, in the broader =
context,=20
      software is the better for it.On Tue, 26 Dec 2006
22:08:43 =
-0500,=20
      Rich 
wrote:>   
Solitare.  =
MSN=20
      Messenger.  Windows Media Player.  Yahoo! =
Messenger.  =20
      > AOL Instant Messenger.  That's
five.>> =

      Rich>>  
"Geo." <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
wrote in =
message news:4591cdd1{at}w3.nls.net...>=
  =20
      "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:45900382{at}w3.nls.net...>=
>  =20
      >> Every program on earth does not have File Edit View but =
that=20
      is  >
besides>   >> the=20
      point.>>   Name
one. Name one popular =
program on=20
      Mac, Linux, or Windows that  > =
doesn't>  =20
      have File/Edit/View.>>  =20
 
Geo.

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