BF> I can see it both ways.
 BF> Of course we don't need a moderator but what would happened
 BF> if someone came here and started to stir thing up?

 bk>  Bjorn is explaining it quite right. I do co-mod the Debate echo.
 bk>  For years we got along, though it did need some moderation,

I have started to read my messages from end to start now so I can'
find an order.. here that makes sense. Bob if you want to moderate
this echo, fine but you know I fear it will only attract those who
will relish in giving you "gray hair'.... You get my drift?

Sorry for so much redundancy.

This all reminds me how a peaceful little town becomes a mean little
town and everybody but the mean folks end up leaving.

I don't have to explain why do I. I don't think so.
............
        

 bk>  because it does get a bit passionate sometimes. But for the most

We know how to tone it down. We gently remind each other to do so. We
self moderate. Nobody is on an ego trip here. Nobody dictates to us
how long our messages can be and then goes and spams the echo just to
show he can because he's the moderator. Nobody does that here. We all
Like to keep our messages short, clear and to the point. It's by mutual
agreement we are all civil to one another. AND above all: We all
know from experience to ignore recognized trolls. They usually go
away.

We don't NEED a moderator Bob. We moderate ourselves.

 bk>  part every one got along and all that was needed was a warning.
 bk>  I've been moderating for years and never had to ban anyone from
 bk>  any echo, or even issue suspensions.


Bob. I respect your moderating skills but it's just that we have not
needed one here before and I don't see why we need one now unless
somebody is actively inviting the trouble you see we need to guard
ourselves against. I'd like to know who.

            
 bk>  Suddenly the nasties discovered the echo, and I found myself

 I've got a good idea who helped them. I won't say but to me it's
obvious. Someone who wants to kill this echo. A disgruntled troll
perhaps. This very same thing happened to another once very good but
now -gone, echo.

 bk>  giving more warnings per week than I used to per year. I had to
 bk>  suspend people, even some who never gave trouble before as they
 bk>  were provoked.

 The reason for that escalation is because ordinarily civil people
 will usually stay civil until that civility is challenged by the kind
of people who relish in prodding them to 'get personal'.'
SO You end up punishing the civil people because you know by doing so
they'll get back with the program. Yet slowly but surely those you
can't control- win. The civil folks end up leaving.

I am seeing what happened to other good echos, here.

 bk>  Three of the nasties are now out of the echo, and it's just
 bk>  starting to calm down.

 OH they'll be back. They never give up Bob. They're waiting for y'all
 to relax and thus your guard will be down once again.
 
 bk>  There are some people who go from echo to echo creating


 YEP! Ignore them they USUALLY go away and leave you alone, but some
DO and will seek revenge. They bring in the heavy artillery so to
speak. Someone better at causing trouble then they do.

 bk>  problems. Used to be the Political Disorder echo was completely
 bk>  flame free. Since the nasties moved in it is almost all flames.
 bk>  The moderator takes no action to stop them.


 IMHO the moderator's skills are only as effective as those willing to
 accept his moderating, in full. Flamers do not accept moderating,
 though I submit they are very good at pretending. They get their
 foot in the door; acting civil. They know how to be civil. After they
 get you (civil) attention, then they start the subtle prodding and
 then the irreversible trouble making. Civility gradually
weakens. The ambience of the echo is lost forever. Then people leave
and the flamers take over (or the echo is shut down.)

How do I know this? I've seen it done.


 bk>  Thing is, they do tend to follow the moderator's orders, they
 bk>  just push the limits. So, no moderator, no limits.

 ONLY Until they get settled in and comfy; getting everybody guard
 down. .

 bk>  That is what I am concerned about.

 But see, if we just leave well enough alone, and stop talking about
them why would they bother? Don't they have enough conquered space as
is? What is it now? Three ditto echos devoted to discussing the very
same things over and over and over again.

Go into fido archives online if it's back up yet, and review the
three known flame ehos over the last two or three years. It never
changes. SO they get bored and look for new blood. Like us.
But then again, once assimilated: their version  of status quo resumes.


Cindy


... Be Alert -- what the world needs is more LERTS.

--- PPoint 3.01