From: "Geo." 

I see, so the solution is to tell the end users they can make up an updated
install CD like you told me below? (last quote in the quoteback). Obviously
it's easy enough for each and every user to do but much too complex for MS
to do this, is that what you are saying?

All I suggested was that MS make up that CD and provide it as an ISO
download. What's the problem with this concept? MS does it one time and it
saves a million people from each spending that same amount of time, that's
how you reduce TCO.

Geo.

"Rich"  wrote in message news:3e3ab190{at}w3.nls.net...
   Because you are describing to different things.  Look at the integrated
install feature of Windows 2000 as an example of the extra effort required.

Rich

  "Geo."  wrote in message
news:3e3a5abe{at}w3.nls.net...
  How do you test a service pack? You install it into a full install and
then
  test right? Why is that any different than putting it into a full install
CD
  and doing a patch from the CD then testing?

  Geo.

  "Rich"  wrote in message news:3e39faaa{at}w3.nls.net...
     I answered this earlier.  If you create a new complete install you must
  test a new complete install.  This is non-trivial.  Now I see you want to
  add a whole new mode of install.  That would be even more testing and
worse,
  I don't think that that adds any value as at best it would be functionally
  equivalent to the service pack install, which requires its own testing.

     I do verify that some fixes are installed.  I don't verify them all
  because I've never had a problem with the ones I have verified.

  Rich

    "Geo."  wrote in message
news:3e39ecfc$1{at}w3.nls.net...
    "Rich"  wrote in message news:3e38c26d$1{at}w3.nls.net...

    >   For other reasons, I think it is impractical.  You expect a full
  release
    for any update.  This is a good way to discourage any software vendor
from
    making releases.  The testing effort is enormous.<

    What's to test, it's a patched version, it's not expected to be any more
    stable than the full version after you apply patches.

    But perhaps MS could learn something here from the free software
  community.
    The testing should be continuous and the improvement should be there in
    every new build. Granted a security patch may introduce a new bug but
the
    release should also contain the mods for the 22 other bugs that were
fixed
    since the last iso.

    What you do is a monthly build, all month long they run it internally
then
    release it just like they do with beta builds to beta testers, except
    instead of trying to tightly control distribution you promote everyone
to
    share their copies with everyone else running the same version (just
like
    security patches can be shared, it will save bandwidth by not requireing
    everyone to download).

    Now before you go off on the copying issues involved consider something,
    consider a thousand people who run an illegal copy of NT and consider
the
    same thousand people running linux instead. Which is worse for MS?

    >>   Back to the selfish reasons, I do not want to do full product
  installs.
    Updates are very easy in comparison.  <<

    I believe I specified in the previous post that there should be a
"patch"
    mode install, where all it does is check version numbers on all
installed
    files and just replaces the ones that need replaced. Might take a little
    longer than a single hotfix but probably be faster than applying half a
    dozen hotfixes.. certainly less labor intensive than applying 6
hotfixes.

    >>Also, unlike you, I don't have problems building an up to date system
  from
    scratch.

    I  bet you do but you just don't know it. Have you ever taken the time
to
    verify that all the hotfixes are actually installed and that you are in
  fact
    running the latest versions of all the files they replace? Trusting
  windows
    update doesn't mean you are really up to date. It just means the right
    entries are in your registry.

    >>   Finally, we've already discussed that you can build your own
  integrated
    installs for Windows including service packs and hotfixes.<<

    My building my own installs isn't going to protect the internet from old
    exploitable software being installed daily because the people installing
  it
    can't get the current build on CD.

    Geo.

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