TR> CH>Yes thats why they oppose birth control. Birth control might ensure
 TR> CH>children are only born  who are wanted and nurtured. The RCC WANTS
 TR> CH>miserable people; for it provides them with 'shelter'...

 TR> All religion aside, abortion is in many cases being used as a form of
 TR> birth control. Note the term "birth control".

 Yes  I agree. The idea being, if the child to be isn't wanted it's
 less apt to be abused if it's not born?

 TR> People want to be free to `do their thing'; young people want to be
 TR> taken to be `adult'.

 Yes. And yet they need to realize whether or not : "I am not ready or
 able financially and or emotionally bring children into this world."

 Bringing a child into the world isn't so 'cute/cool/adult' when youth
 are shown the harsh realities of rising them. OH here's a good
 Money always talks louder than morals.

 Thus birth control (the prevention kind) is the best option; in this
 way abortion won't be a question.

 TR> And everyone wants to have sexual relations, on *their* terms, without
 TR> restriction.

 I wouldn't say this is true with everybody Tim. I'd say though for
 whom this condition is true- are the ilk whom children are better off
 not being born to. But they are and that's why we have endemic child
 abuse.

 TR> As a woman who's statements here in Fido make me believe that you have
 TR> at least one child, tell me how difficult it is to avail oneself of

 Yes.

 TR> one of the *several* methods of birth control (heavy stress on the
 TR> word "control")?

 Not difficult at all. And it's even easier for men.
  
 TR> And there are so many in this day and age.


 TR> Just how much respect do you think society should have for a couple of
 TR> people who aren't even adult enough to have the control over their
 TR> sexual activity that includes the prevention of an unwanted pregnancy?
  
 hmm. Not much. So you think we should just not bother to encourage
 people young and old alike, in the benefits of taking control and
 avoiding unwanted children? Rather we should terrorize them into not
'doing it' (which has proven to backfire due to the good old rebel
 spirit most of us all have in us.) Hey I had an interesting
 conversation with a 18'er recently. She was upset because I didn't
 react to something she said negatively as she expected. Can you beat
 that? I told her I'm not going to play mind games and read off the
 'your choice/your consequences' act.

 TR> If they can't control their own sexual urges long enough to take some
 TR> preventive measures against an unwanted pregnancy, what makes you
 TR> think they are intelligent enough to make decisions about using a
 TR> ballot in a voting booth?

 Good point. Make b.c fun! and How about tax incentives. Hey money
 talks! Screams even.

 Jilly-Jo whispers loudly nearing the heat of passion:  "Kenny.. tax
 bonus... grab dem damn condoms!" "Sure thing" Jilly but you gotta
 let me help stick in the frisbee!" Oh alright where's' that dam K-y...

 Oh another thing. TV and movies encourage irresponsible sex. Ever
 notice that? (Yes let's blame tv! No, but it's a factor especially on
impressionable youth.)

 TR> For that matter, those in politics who would encourage such people by
 TR> bringing up legislation that makes it easier for them to relinquish
 TR> enough control over their own sexual urges to take preventive-birth
 TR> measures, just what makes you want that sort of person to be in our
 TR> government?

 I don't. But as said above I think there are ways to encourage people
 to take control over their own lives so gummit doesn't end up doing it
 as is the case with the result of irresponsible sex by the
 irresponsible:  abused children.

 No harm in teaching kids the truth about sex and the consequences
(unwanted pregnancy and the spread of STD's for example) instead of
threats/fairy tales? Threats/Fairy tales just don't work and they
 never have- to keep youth from wanting sex. Curiosity and ignorance
 are a dangerous mix.

 Here's a great idea. Have youth baby sit another youth. When they see
how hard it is to manage each other they'll think twice about having
kids. Society encourages us to have kids as if they stayed cute babies
forever. (Laughing). OH another GREAT idea is to encourage those
parenting programs my daughter attended a couple years ago. :) The
Robo Doll... you've heard of that? Cured her of wanting kids for a
good time yet anyway.

But yeah I see you mean adults too not just teens. Sad as to say they
often don't try harder to control their sex life until AFTER they've
messed up five or six kids. Oh but wait. some cults don't want parents
to take control their sex life. IIRC you're supposed to somehow stop
wanting to have sex after a certain age.(The women anyway.)

 TR> Why would anyone want peope leading us who encourage one segment of
 TR> our society to abandon personal self-control, by making possible the
 TR> horrendous solution of an aborted human fetus?

 I'm all for self-control but no form of birth control outside of
sterilization or celibacy is perfect. 'Accidents' happen'. So when it
does happen- the idea is as said- abortion of an unwanted life
prevents potential abuse of that life after it is born.

PS: Recently I realized why adoption is not considered a viable option
by some b.c groups. Adoption in of itself can be a traumatic
experience. (If the child isn't born they'll never know they weren't
wanted. Oh I know you tell the adopted child they ARE wanted, but
believe me the hurt of being 'given up' goes very deep.)
...........

 TR> There is plenty of noise about the U.S. Soldiers dying in Iraq, but

 I'm glad you brought that up. Some anti-free choice groups claim
 sperm is 'alive' (as per the definition of life being
 self-aware/supporting). So by that thinking- soldiers; hosts of
 those living sperm sent off to be killed - is murder, no?

 TR> nobody says anything about the number of human fetus's that are
 TR> delliberately

  Do the human fetuses know they're being killed? Are they self aware?
  Do they have any choice? No; but then does the soldier?

 TR> aborted each year. For no other reason than that the woman didn't want
 TR> to be pregnant.

  "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."
                                                        
 TR> Where is the outrage?

 With the women who do not want to bear the child and the unwanted
 children who wished they'd never been born

 And you know the old chestnut about expenses.

 Cindy

... Hawkeye: "Is it animal, mineral, or vegetable?" BJ: "Yes"

--- PPoint 3.01