From: "Rich" 

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   I didn't include a red hat perpetual license because they don't have =
a non-subscription server product.  Otherwise I would have.

Rich

  "Adam Flinton"  wrote in message =
news:3e69c187{at}w3.nls.net...
  Humm....OK then why are you comparing RedHat stronghold etc vs Windows
  perpetual licence?
  Why not choose a std Red Hat purchase (much as the Windows puchase is =
a std
  Win2KS purchase)?

  What is the perpetual licence cost for Red Hat? How does that compare =
to the
  perpetual licence for Win2K3S WE?

  Adam

  "Rich"  wrote in message news:3e6946db{at}w3.nls.net...
     And so we come full circle.  Let's exclude what you pay to EDS or =
IBMGS
  even though it likely dwarfs the cost of the software.  You have still
  failed to refute or even respond to an annual subscription for red =
hat's
  solution costing more than four to six times the cost of a perpetual =
license
  for the Microsoft solution.

  Rich

    "Adam Flinton"  wrote in message
  news:3e694375$1{at}w3.nls.net...

    EDS, IBMGS et al will hold the relationship with MS or Red Hat =
that's why
    you pay em.

    Adam



    "Rich"  wrote in message news:3e694186{at}w3.nls.net...
       Can you remind us why you replied to this thread if you have =
nothing to
    add?

    Rich

      "Adam Flinton"  wrote in message
    news:3e693e89$1{at}w3.nls.net...
      I'm not making any claims. I am stating what I know.

      Re support for a production web server...go ask Yahoo or Amazon =
what
  they
      pay. I could tell you about the ones I know such as ocado
      (http://www.ocado.com/) but frankly I'm not going to coz I don't =
have
    their
      permission to do so.

      Adam

      "Rich"  wrote in message news:3e6933f0{at}w3.nls.net...
         You are the one making claims.  Spell out the support level you
  believe
      is necessary for a production web server and the cost of this =
support.
      Remember we are discussing the claim that one solution is cheaper =
than
      another where Red Hat's price for their linux plus stronghold =
solution
    costs
      more than four to six times as much for a one year subscription =
than
    Windows
      Server 2003 Web Edition costs for a perpetual license.

      Rich

        "Adam Flinton"  wrote in message
      news:3e692e38{at}w3.nls.net...
        What? EDS/CapGem/IBM GS Support or direct support from the =
distrib
    owner?

        Adam

        "Rich"  wrote in message news:3e68c854{at}w3.nls.net...
           OK.  How much does this cost?

        Rich
          "Adam Flinton"  wrote in message
        news:3e6854e1{at}w3.nls.net...


          I don't know any major comp (there may be some, I jus don't =
know
  them)
        which
          relies directly upon MS for support. EDS yes...CapGemini yes, =
IBM GS
          yes....direct MS support?

          However I do know a couple which do have a direct channel into =
the
      distrib
          comp whose distrib they're using (in Europe Suse are =
especailly good
    at
          this).


          Adam


          Rich

            "Robert Comer"  wrote in message
          news:3e681017$1{at}w3.nls.net...
            >  Can you be specific instead of hot air and hand waving?

            I just stated my opinion, that's all. I'm not here to list =
out
        everything
            possible.

            >   It's well known that Linux has less functionality.

            I'm not so sure that can be said any more, but no matter I =
wasn't
    just
            talking overall OS functionality, but what you can do with =
that
      specific
            version of Windows Server -- with no Cal's, that means no NT
          authentication,
            files serving, or print serving, and I assume no domain
      capabilities --
            that's 4 areas that Windows is strong on and Linux needs to =
catch
    up,
        yet
          I
            can put together a Linux box that does all 5 of these things =
for a
    LOT
          less
            money.

            >If you want to roll your own it can cost less for Linux, =
assuming
      your
          time
            is worth >nothing.

            There's actually a decent amount of free support out there, =
and
  you
        don't
            have to roll your own version, you can use someone's =
distribution.

            >If you want to use a supported version, like from RedHat, =
expect
  to
        spend
            much more for your annual subscription.  They will sell you =
a
        subscription
            to red hat linux advanced server for $1499 per year.<

            I would *never* pay Red Hat that much, they don't have =
enough to
    offer
            support wise.  I have spent that much on Microsoft products
  several
        times
            over up to now, but things are a changin.  I might add that
    Microsoft
      is
            quite costly for aftermarket support and I don't buy that =
either.

            >If you want their supported enterprise level web server you =
are
    going
        to
            pay another $395 to $895 annually.  That's more than four to =
six
    times
          more
            expensive than the Windows Server 2003 solution.<

            I got it beat -- I have a server here at home (always =
learning)
  that
        cost
          $0
            for the Linux and about $200 for the hardware.  (I also have =
a
  Linux
          client
            PC here that I paid $99 for and I'm not going to do that =
again, at
      least
          not
            this distribution.)

            - Bob Comer



            "Rich"  wrote in message news:3e67d5e4$1{at}w3.nls.net...
               Can you be specific instead of hot air and hand waving?

               It's well known that Linux has less functionality.  If =
you want
    to
        roll
            your own it can cost less for Linux, assuming your time is =
worth
        nothing.
            If you want to use a supported version, like from RedHat, =
expect
  to
        spend
            much more for your annual subscription.  They will sell you =
a
        subscription
            to red hat linux advanced server for $1499 per year.  If you =
want
      their
            supported enterprise level web server you are going to pay =
another
      $395
        to
            $895 annually.  That's more than four to six times more =
expensive
    than
        the
            Windows Server 2003 solution.

            Rich

              "Robert Comer" 
wrote in message
            news:3e67b7d1{at}w3.nls.net...
              Less functionality, higher cost. Ease of use is a draw, =
but it
    would
          have
            to be even cheaper just for a web server.

              - Bob Comer


                "Rich"  wrote in message
news:3e67b63f{at}w3.nls.net...
                   By what criteria and how so?

                Rich

                  "Robert Comer"  wrote in =
message
            news:3e67ae88$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                  That's not good enough to compete with Linux.

                  - Bob Comer


                  "Geo."  wrote in message
            news:3e67a4e1$1{at}w3.nls.net...
                  > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/29567.html
                  >
                  > There will be no price increases (as such) when =
Microsoft
      ships
          its
            next
                  > server OS, Windows Server 2003, on April 24th, but =
there
    will
      be
        a
            new
                  > budget-priced version of the product aimed squarely =
at the
    web
            server
                  > market. Server 2003 Web Edition comes without client
  access
            licences, with
                  a
                  > 2gig limit on memory, 2-way SMP, and is $399.
                  >
                  >








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   I didn't
include a red hat =
perpetual=20
license because they don't have a non-subscription server product.  =

Otherwise I would have.
 
Rich
 

  "Adam Flinton" <adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>">mailto:adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com">adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>
=
wrote in=20
  message news:3e69c187{at}w3.nls.net...Hu=
mm....OK=20
  then why are you comparing RedHat stronghold etc vs =
Windowsperpetual=20
  licence?Why not choose a std Red Hat purchase (much as the Windows =
puchase=20
  is a stdWin2KS purchase)?What is the
perpetual licence =
cost for=20
  Red Hat? How does that compare to theperpetual licence for Win2K3S =

  WE?Adam"Rich"
<{at}> wrote in message news:3e6946db{at}w3.nls.net...&nbs=
p; =20
  And so we come full circle.  Let's exclude what you pay to EDS or =

  IBMGSeven though it likely dwarfs the cost of the software.  =
You have=20
  stillfailed to refute or even respond to an annual subscription =
for red=20
  hat'ssolution costing more than four to six times the cost of a =
perpetual=20
  licensefor the Microsoft
solution.Rich  "Adam
=

  Flinton" <adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>">mailto:adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com">adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>
=
wrote in=20
  messagenews:3e694375$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
 =20
  EDS, IBMGS et al will hold the relationship with MS or Red Hat that's=20
  why  you pay em. 
Adam  =
"Rich"=20
  <{at}> wrote in message news:3e694186{at}w3.nls.net...&nbs=
p;   =20
  Can you remind us why you replied to this thread if you have nothing=20
  to  add? 
Rich    "Adam =
Flinton"=20
  <adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>=20">mailto:adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com">adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>=20
  wrote in message  news:3e693e89$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
   =20
  I'm not making any claims. I am stating what I =
know.   =20
  Re support for a production web server...go ask Yahoo or Amazon=20
  whatthey    pay. I could
tell you about the =
ones I know=20
  such as ocado    (http://www.ocado.com/;)">http://www.ocado.com/http://www.ocado.com/">http://www.ocado.com/;)
but frankly =
I'm not=20
  going to coz I don't have 
their    =
permission to=20
  do so.   
Adam    "Rich" =

  <{at}> wrote in message news:3e6933f0{at}w3.nls.net...&nbs=
p;     =20
  You are the one making claims.  Spell out the support level=20
  youbelieve    is necessary
for a production web =
server=20
  and the cost of this support.   
Remember we are =
discussing=20
  the claim that one solution is cheaper
than    =
another=20
  where Red Hat's price for their linux plus stronghold =
solution =20
  costs    more than four to six times
as much for a =
one year=20
  subscription than 
Windows    Server 2003 =
Web=20
  Edition costs for a perpetual
license.   =20
 
Rich     
"Adam Flinton" <adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>">mailto:adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com">adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>
=
wrote in=20
  message    news:3e692e38{at}w3.nls.net...&nbs=
p;    =20
  What? EDS/CapGem/IBM GS Support or direct support from the =
distrib =20
  owner?     =20
 
Adam     
"Rich" <{at}> wrote in =
message=20
  news:3e68c854{at}w3.nls.net...&nbs=
p;       =20
  OK.  How much does this =
cost?     =20
 
Rich       
"Adam Flinton" =
<adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>">mailto:adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com">adam{at}NOSPAMsoftfab.com>
=
wrote in=20
  message      news:3e6854e1{at}w3.nls.net...=
       =20
  I don't know any major comp (there may be some, I jus don't=20
  knowthem)     =20
 
which       
relies directly =
upon MS=20
  for support. EDS yes...CapGemini yes, IBM=20
 
GS       
yes....direct MS=20
 
support?       
However I =
do know a=20
  couple which do have a direct channel into
the   =20
 
distrib       
comp whose =
distrib=20
  they're using (in Europe Suse are especailly good =20
 
at       =20
 
this).       =20
 
Adam       =20
 
Rich         
=
"Robert=20
  Comer" <bobcomer{at}mindspring.com>">mailto:bobcomer{at}mindspring.com">bobcomer{at}mindspring.com>
= wrote in=20
 
message       
news:3e681017$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
         =20
  >  Can you be specific instead of hot air and hand=20
 
waving?         
=
I just=20
  stated my opinion, that's all. I'm not here to list=20
  out     =20
 
everything         =20
  =
possible.         =20
  >   It's well known that Linux has less=20
  =
functionality.        &nb=
sp;=20
  I'm not so sure that can be said any more, but no matter I =
wasn't =20
 
just         
talking =
overall=20
  OS functionality, but what you can do with
that   =20
 
specific         
=
version of=20
  Windows Server -- with no Cal's, that means no=20
 
NT       =20
  =
authentication,         =
=20
  files serving, or print serving, and I assume no =
domain   =20
  capabilities =
--         =20
  that's 4 areas that Windows is strong on and Linux needs to =
catch =20
  up,     =20
 
yet       =20
 
I         
can put =
together a=20
  Linux box that does all 5 of these things for a =20
 
LOT       =20
 
less         =20
 
money.         
=
>If=20
  you want to roll your own it can cost less for Linux,=20
  assuming   =20
 
your       =20
 
time         
is =
worth=20
  =
>nothing.         =
;=20
  There's actually a decent amount of free support out there,=20
  andyou     =20
 
don't         
have =
to roll=20
  your own version, you can use someone's=20
  =
distribution.        &nbs=
p;=20
  >If you want to use a supported version, like from RedHat,=20
  expectto     =20
 
spend         
much =
more for=20
  your annual subscription.  They will sell you=20
  a     =20
 
subscription         
=
to red=20
  hat linux advanced server for $1499 per=20
  =
year.<         
= I=20
  would *never* pay Red Hat that much, they don't have enough =
to =20
 
offer         
=
support=20
  wise.  I have spent that much on Microsoft=20
 
productsseveral     =20
 
times         
over =
up to=20
  now, but things are a changin.  I might add that =20
  Microsoft   =20
 
is         
quite =
costly for=20
  aftermarket support and I don't buy that=20
 
either.         
=
>If=20
  you want their supported enterprise level web server you are  =

  going     =20
 
to         
pay =
another $395=20
  to $895 annually.  That's more than four to six =20
 
times       =20
 
more         
=
expensive than=20
  the Windows Server 2003=20
  =
solution.<        &nbs=
p; I=20
  got it beat -- I have a server here at home (always=20
 
learning)that     =20
 
cost       =20
 
$0         
for the =
Linux and=20
  about $200 for the hardware.  (I also have=20
 
aLinux       =20
 
client         
PC =
here that=20
  I paid $99 for and I'm not going to do that again, =
at   =20
 
least       =20
 
not         
this=20
  =
distribution.)        &nb=
sp; -=20
  Bob=20
  =
Comer        &nbs=
p;=20
  "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:3e67d5e4$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
            
=

  Can you be specific instead of hot air and hand=20
  =
waving?         &nbs=
p;  =20
  It's well known that Linux has less functionality.  If you =
want =20
  to     =20
 
roll         
your =
own it can=20
  cost less for Linux, assuming your time is=20
  worth     =20
 
nothing.         
If =
you want=20
  to use a supported version, like from RedHat,=20
  expectto     =20
 
spend         
much =
more for=20
  your annual subscription.  They will sell you=20
  a     =20
 
subscription         
=
to red=20
  hat linux advanced server for $1499 per year.  If you=20
  want   =20
 
their         
=
supported=20
  enterprise level web server you are going to pay =
another   =20
  $395     =20
 
to         
$895=20
  annually.  That's more than four to six times more =
expensive =20
  than     =20
 
the         
Windows =
Server=20
  2003 =
solution.         =20
  =
Rich          &=
nbsp;=20
  "Robert Comer" <bobcomer{at}mindspring.com>">mailto:bobcomer{at}mindspring.com">bobcomer{at}mindspring.com>
= wrote in=20
 
message         
news:3e67b7d1{at}w3.nls.net...&nbs=
p;          =20
  Less functionality, higher cost. Ease of use is a draw, but =
it =20
 
would       =20
 
have         
to be =
even=20
  cheaper just for a web=20
  =
server.         &nbs=
p; =20
  - Bob=20
  =
Comer         &n=
bsp;   =20
  "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:3e67b63f{at}w3.nls.net...&nbs=
p;            =
;   =20
  By what criteria and how=20
  =
so?          &n=
bsp;  =20
  =
Rich          &=
nbsp;    =20
  "Robert Comer" <bobcomer{at}mindspring.com>">mailto:bobcomer{at}mindspring.com">bobcomer{at}mindspring.com>
= wrote in=20
 
message         
news:3e67ae88$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
            &=
nbsp;  =20
  That's not good enough to compete with=20
  =
Linux.          =
;     =20
  - Bob=20
  =
Comer         &n=
bsp;     =20
  "Geo." <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
=
wrote in=20
 
message         
news:3e67a4e1$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
            &=
nbsp;  =20
  > http://www.th" target="new">http://www.th=">http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/29567.html">http://www.th=
eregister.co.uk/content/61/29567.html    &nbs=
p;          =20
  =
>           =
;    =20
  > There will be no price increases (as such) when=20
  Microsoft   =20
 
ships       =20
 
its         =20
  =
next           =
;    =20
  > server OS, Windows Server 2003, on April 24th, but =
there =20
  will   
be     =20
 
a         =20
  =
new           =
    =20
  > budget-priced version of the product aimed squarely at =
the =20
 
web         =20
  =
server          &nb=
sp;    =20
  > market. Server 2003 Web Edition comes without=20
  =
clientaccess         =
;=20
  licences,=20
  =
with           =
;    =20
  =
a           &n=
bsp;   =20
  > 2gig limit on memory, 2-way SMP, and is=20
  =
$399.          &nbs=
p;    =20
  =
>           =
;    =20
 
>

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