ù Quoting Rich Willbanks from a message to Ryan Bagueros  ù 
RW> If you go back about 30 years you will see that this was tried and it 
RW> failed, they were called communes.  I think there is one commune left 
RW> and it is not a pure commune.
You think that there is _one_ left! There are hundreds upon hundreds of 
syndicalist collectives, "communes," etc. Maybe your kids or someone you know 
listens to bands like Offspring or Rancid or something like that - they were 
born in the huge network of collectives that put on shows, make records, 
publish books, distribute food, etc. I'm not talking about six hippies living 
out in the country or something, I'm talking about collectives existing in 
the 
cities, in the suburbs, wherever. 
RW> Where is this?  Every company that is 'employee owned', that I know 
RW> of, has almost the same rules as one owned by a big, nasty, profit 
RW> driven corporation.  If you don't work you don't get paid; if you 
RW> don't work enough times you get fired; there is a power pyramid where 
I know what you are talking about, but I don't think you know what I'm 
talking 
about. You mean something like, I forget what its called, a lot of steel 
plants
have done it, where its sold as "the employees own the company" and they have 
a
big ordeal about it, and then a week later, its business as usual. I agree - 
those are idiotic. I'm talking about worker-owned collectives, which have 
been 
quite successful - every employee has an equal say in things, everyone makes 
an
equal share of the profit (i.e., no executives to take 50% off the top), etc.
RW> No it isn't because the same hierarchy exist.  The problem comes, 
RW> IMO, from the unions (today).  I've worked in union and non-union 
RW> shops and in EVERY NON- UNION shop the worker-boss relationship was 
Everything else you said - and YES, I actually agree completely with you. But 
this is not always how unions have been, if you read your history. Today they 
are just another power broker in the world of business/industry. Yesterday, 
they were decentralized groups that worked for the true benefit of the 
worker. 
And there are still unions that are like that, the IWW for example. Unions 
today are a joke and yes, many grievances could be resolved by just talking 
about it (which is why arbitration/mediation has become so popular). 
But whether or not most unions today are run by white collar executives or 
not,
workers still need something to counter the effects of the boss. 
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