AWL> You can't be a Member of the White Pages, as you
AWL> get listed there by being a Customer of Telstra...

PE> I applied for a telephone number, and got listed in the 
PE> white pages.

AWL> No Paul, you signed up as a customer of Telstra and paid
AWL> for a connection. They then assigned you a telephone 
AWL> number.

 RS> Which is saying precisely the same thing as far as the list
 RS> is concerned. 

No it isn't. The Telephone Book is a publication of Telstra, and includes
information on Telstra customers published as part of the contract between
the customer and Telstra.

 RS> And being part of that list, or part of the very large 
 RS> group of people who have a phone, doesnt do a thing to his 
 RS> legal obligations as far as risks from people suing Telecom 
 RS> etc are concerned. 

Becasue they are a customer of Telstra. Are you saying that a NodeListed
Sysop is a customer of FidoNet?

 RS> Or what other customers of Telecom might do, legally or 
 RS> illegally. He just has to comply with some detail that 
 RS> Telecom requires to use their line, and pay his bills etc.

Because he is a customer. He is not a part of Telstra. He has a defined
relationship with it. The money he pays Telstra is income, on which it is
taxed. 

Is the money Fred Nurk pays FidoNet (as contributing Sysop to the N640 mail
fund) income - no, becasue Fred is a member of FidoNet.

PE> I applied for a Fido node number, and got listed in the 
PE> nodelist.

AWL> You made an application for Nodelisting

 RS> Yes. Again, saying precisely what he said in different 
 RS> words.

Probably right. Is it clearer if I say it as "an application for
membership, so that [he] may be nodelisted" or doesn't that make it
clearer?

AWL> and became a Member of FidoNet when that took place...

 RS> NOT in the sense of any legal liability risked because of 
 RS> something some other person with a node number does. 

The Nodelist is the membership list for FidoNet.

 RS> Just like with a phone line, there are some technical 
 RS> requirement to comply with, no fee to pay in this case,

Not so. Becoming a customer of Telstra involves entering a contract for
services with them. Becoming Nodelisted involves becoming a member of
FidoNet. Nothing like the same thing...

 RS> no problem with being legally liable for what others who 
 RS> also have a node number might do, 

So you keep asserting. However I can't help but feel that the Courts will
not agree. Members of associations are liable for the actions of the
association (and thus its management) and that liability is only limited
when the association incorporates. Members of unincorporated associations
accept unlimited personal liability for any debts of the association.

 RS> just like you arent legally liable for what another person 
 RS> who ALSO has a phone does with HIS phone.
Telstra are not liable only by virtue of the Act that created them.

AWL> FidoNet Nodelist *does*not*equall* telephonebook...

PE> Yes it does.

AWL> So because I can use the HREOC to force
AWL> Telstra to provide disabled friendly service

 RS> Because the government has imposed that on Telecom.
No Rod, because the Government has imposed that on every organistaion,
incorporated or not, Government owned or not in the land. That's what the
DDA means Rod.

AWL>then I can do the same to FidoNet?

 RS> Nope, because they already have a disabled friendly 
 RS> service, to wit the point system, 

A point sysop is expressly forbiden to take part in some Sysop Echos. That
is a restriction that HREOC will probably rule unlawful. (Especially under
the QLD Anti-Discrimination Act.)

 RS> which you clearly can use coz you do so. 
But I am not a Member of FidoNet. At best a Point could be considered a
form of limited or associate membership, because a Point is not Nodelisted,
is often refused freq access to systems that allow Nodelisted systems to
freq, and cannot obtain some Sysop Echos... Limiting a person to a
restricted class of membership on the basis of a disablity is now unlawful
Rod.

 RS> Which has the tiny problem for you that you cant fake away 
 RS> like mad claiming a disability that cant use it, coz you 
 RS> clearly can use it.

Yes Rod, I can use a Point setup. Big deal. Unless I can access FidoNet
Sysop Echos and can be Nodelisted as a point, that does not meet the
requirements of various State and Commonwealth Legislation. Stop this
pathetic faking Rod. If I have the same access to FidoNet as a Point as
does a nodelisted system, then there is no problem. If there are any
restrictions on Point access, then Point access does not meet the
requirements for equal access...

 RS> And even if you say were both deaf and blind, so there was 
 RS> no real way to email using a point, that your problem, not 
 RS> Fidos.

Actually there are a number of Fido users I've come across who have that
problem. They use braile terminals. Under the various Acts, if they could
not connect to Fido with those terminals, then Fido would have to do
something about it, up to and including rewriting FTSC-001 if needed. (They
would probably get a couple of years in which to do so, the HREOC aren't
complete bastards.) Anything short of that and Fido would get very little
leeway...

 RS> Just like a newspaper isnt obliged to provide their
 RS> paper on audio cassette for those who cant read a paper.

Actually Newspapers (and a variety of other publications) must provide use
of their material to the RPH (Radio Print Handicapped) service free of
charge. If that Government funded service did not already exist, then they
would probably find themselves having to create and fund one...
...Alex.
(Pagan & Proud)

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