Kurt Ullman wrote:
> In article ,
>  "John W. Kennedy"  wrote:
>> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>>> In article ,
>>>  Kay Shapero  wrote:
>>>> Permanent occupation, however, only counts as a win if
you're trying to 
>>>> build an empire. Otherwise, it's a continual, sometimes deadly, 
>>>> nuisance.  So, what are we trying to achieve here?

>>>           Germany?

>> And that is the tragic error that Bush and his supporters are making: 
>> Iraq is not Germany.

>> Germany was a civilized country that went temporarily insane in the 
>> space of less than a generation. One of the reasons that Hitler was able 
>> to do as much evil as he did was that no one but his followers took him 
>> seriously. 

>      I woudl disagree. They had been a little bit crazy before, like in 
> 1917 and other times. Other than the holacost (which I admit is a VERY 
> big other), it was just your standard garden variety war. 

Piffle. WWI was the result of a diplomatic house of cards crashing down. 
If any specific nation could be blamed for it, it would be Serbia. WWII 
(in Europe), on the other hand, was the result of a passionate desire by 
Germany to conquer, and, in the case of "racial" inferiors, such as 
Slavs, exterminate, its neighbors, its neighbors' neighbors, and its 
neighbors' neighbors' neighbors.

>> It is true that Germany nearly had to be ground to powder between the 
>> British, French, and Americans in the west and Russia in the East. But 
>> after the Short Sharp Shock, the German people were able to turn back to 
>> their past, and remember who they really were. 

>  I would suggest more that they were shocked by what they had become, 
> over considerably more than a generation. Didn't Justinian say something 
> along the lines of no one just suddenly becomes depraved?

Who could have imagined 30 years ago that, in the 21st century, we'd be 
seeing replays of the Scopes trial?

>> With Iraq, we do not have that history of civilization to build on. The 
>> conflict between Sunni and Shia has been going on since Mohamed died, 
>> and shows no sign of stopping. (There is also an underlying tension over 
>> the fact that most of the Shia are Iranian, and most of the Sunni 
>> identify themselves as Arabs.) Both sides glorify suicide attacks. And 
>> both sides are still in an essentially tribal culture of blood feuds.

>    That is true. Also, the US has never really gotten a handle on how to 
> do the peace. We are the best in the world at blowing things up and 
> killing people, but haven't gotten the stuff that requires more finesse 
> together yet. They should have followed the suggestions of Thomas P. M. 
> Barnett , YEARS ago. 

> http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_040520.htm

>> The Kurds might be separated out, but Turkey refuses to accept the 
>> possibility, and US policy chooses not to offend Turkey.

>     I think this is probably another thing (like looking the other way 
> in Afghanistan) that will probably come back to bite us on the ass. The 
> US hasn't had a lot of luck with political expendiency. 

>> There is another difference between Germany and Iraq. Germany was 
>> engaged in a war of conquest, and lost. Iraq (this time) was not. That 
>> makes us the Hated Invader, with no apparent justification for our actions.

>       Wouldn't have made any real difference. We (with the French and 
> Germans of all people) went into Kosovo solely because the dudes in 
> power were killing people right and left. On that alone we should have 
> gotten rid of SH.

Unfortunately, what Bush chose to do instead was make up fantastic lies 
and sell the war on that basis.

I have a recurring vision of squat, dirty, bearded, hairy men and their 
greasy, cringing mates, dressed all in torn animal skins, crawling out 
of their caves--nearly on all fours--every sunrise; there they face the 
east, and, as the sun comes up, before the daily hunt, begin the morning 
chant that is the core of the only religion they know, handed down by 
their ancestors from time immemorial:

V. "Damn George Bush!"

R. "Damn George Bush!"

V. "Damn George Bush!"

R. "Damn George Bush!"

....



-- 
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you 
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
   --  Rupert Goodwins
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