JOHNJWILSON -> ED HULETT wrote:
 J>>> Lessee...

 ->>>>>>>>>> No, it is life and death,
whether you like it or not.

 J>>>>>>>>> It's like getting a tooth pulled.

 ->>>> Ask a woman what she goes through during and after an abortion and
 J> then
 J>>> get
 ->>>> back to me on that.

 J>>> The answers vary greatly. Primarily relief.

 ->> You can't be serious.

 ->> Again, you speak out of ignorance.
 J>  From talking to a lot of women...and interviewing scores of opinionated
 J> women...

Well, that settles that, eh?

 J> I don't claim to be any sort of expert...but I've been married for 57
 J> years, and have two grown daughters and grandchildren...Abortion never was
 J> ever considered in my family...

Which has what to do with this discussion?

 J> You, I understand are not married...from where does your font of knowledge
 J> spring?

From talking to many women and reading several first hand accounts. Plus
reading biology books.

One does not need to be married to gain knowledge in the issue.

 ->>>> Like always, the pro-abortion crowd...

 J>>> A lot of people (many!) who feel that a woman has freedom to choose
 J> what
 J>>> happens to her body...are also saddened by the prevalence of
 J> abortion:
 J>>> there are many good suggestions yo reduce this: In sum: Legal, Safe
 J> and
 J>>> Rare.

 ->> That isn't the goal for the pro-abortion crowd...
 J> Haven't heard from, any of the "Pro abortion" 'crowd' with
whom you seem
 J> familiar...

I haven't heard from your sources, either.

 J>  Their goal is to have abortion
 ->> available up to and including delivering an almost full-term child and
 J> killing
 ->> it or letting it die of neglect.
 J> Wow. You must know a lot of really strange people. Or look for them to
 J> buttress your 'anti-choice' prejudice...

No, I actually read what actually happens during and after an abortion.

You, OTOH, rely on some strange belief that the unborn is neither human or
alive until it takes its first breath.


 ->> Ms. Sanger (the founder of Planned Parenthood) was a racist whose stated
 J> goal
 ->> was to eliminate African-Americans through birth control.

 J> I doubt that. Martin Luther King didn't think so. Some do. It has little to
 J> do with the topic at hand...

Sanger said so herself. She was a vocal proponent for legal abortion.


 J>>> I really know of no one who is Pro-abortion in any general sense...

 ->> You delude yourself, then.

 J> :-) Speaking of which...


 J>>> 'Convenience' is at best use of a trivial word concerning an
 J> important
 J>>> subject.

 ->> If they rely on abortion as a form of birth control it is all about
 ->> convenience.


 ->> BTW, at the top, you said it was like pulling a tooth. Which is it?
 J> Oh. I'd say a molar...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about. I know of several women
who have had long lasting psychological and even physical problems from
abortion. Pulling a tooth is nothing compared to that.


 J>>>>>>>>> Yep. A child is born alive when the
first breath of air is
 J>>> taken.

 ->>>>>>>> It is alive long before that.

 J>>> Just exactly how long do you figure. The moment of conception. At
 J> that very
 J>>> instant a soul is implanted? If that fetus is removed does the
 J> implanted
 J>>> soul die?

 ->> It is life from the moment of conception. It contains its own unique DNA
 J> and
 ->> starts to grow from a single cell at a rapid rate. In just a few short
 J> weeks it
 ->> is almost fully developed. There is evidence that at a very early stage
 J> it is
 ->> self-aware. The soul is also developed in the womb.
 J> Yes, many people believe that.

And you have no evidence at all to prove otherwise.


 ->> You attempts at dehumanizing the fetus is typical of those who support
 J> abortion
 ->> at any cost.

 J> I support a woman's right to control her body.

No, you support killing the unborn. A woman who has engaged in behavior
that results in pregnancy has already made a choice. If she doesn't want to
be bothered with having a child, she should take better precautions
*BEFORE* she engages in said behavior.

The baby inside her is *NOT* her body.

 ->>>> Your first breath did not transform you from a "collection of
 J> molecules"
 J>>> into a
 ->>>> human life. Your were human and alive in your mother's womb.

 J>>> You have every right to believe that. People (many) insist of
 J> believing
 J>>> differently. The argument will continue.

 ->> No one said you didn't have the right to believe it. I merely said you
 J> were
 ->> wrong in believing it.
 J> :-)


 ->>>>>> Obviously you weren't dead in the womb.
 J>>>>> There was no "I" in the womb. There was a
mechanism, assembling,
 J>>> becoming
 J>>>>> usable. The engine started when it started to
breathe. Then senses
 J>>>>> conjoined and neurons flowed with input from
surroundings..._I_
 J> came
 J>>> into
 J>>>>> existence sometime later...

 ->>>> That is the most ignorant comment I have ever read...
 J>>> There are a lot of ignorant people around. Many have funny capital
 J> letters
 J>>> attached to their name. Many also are from other current cultures
 J> not
 J>>> considered barbaric :-)

 ->> Huh?

 J> I didn't THINK you were paying attention :-)

Your rambling sentence above is evidence only on your inability to stay on topic.

 ->>>> (I) have no desire for an unwanted child to be brought into
 J>>>>> this
 J>>>>>>> world. Or forcing any woman to do so.

 ->>>>>> Ah yes, death is better than being wanted...

 J>>>>> Abortion is a sad decision, IMO to be made by the woman.

 ->>>> It is and the saddest part is that 99% of abortions are done for
 J> the
 ->>>> convenience of the woman --
 J>>> A silly, made up statistic. And 'convenience' a silly non-empathetic
 J> word.

 ->> Show me where that statistic is made up or wrong.
 J> I don't have to. There is no basis for a statistic to measure
 J> 'convenience',

Only in your mind.

 J> or to so ascribe it. No measure of unreported abortions...it is obviously
 J> something that is produced for a purpose...fraudulently :-|
 J> .

Nonsense. The vast majority of abortions are done as a form of birth
control. Birth control is for convenience and nothing more.


 ->> Really? And it takes empathy to support abortion?
 J> Absolutely.

What about your empathy for the innocent child that is killed at the very
beginning of its life?

 J>>> So you believe that those raped should be forced to bring the child
 J> to
 J>>> term. Incestuous pregnancies also?
 J>>> Interesting, but cruel.

 ->> As I told Sauer, rape and incest rarely result in pregnancy. The
 J> encounter is
 ->> all about power and nothing to do with sex.
 J> In your somewhat less than profound opinion.

It isn't opinion, it is fact.

 J>>> Now you are getting an even smaller percentage of those who might
 J> agree
 J>>> with you.(Not that that matters.)

 ->> If 9 million people believe wrongly, it doesn't change the fact that
 J> they
 ->> believe wrongly.

 ->> I really couldn't care less who disagrees with me.
 J> As I said...:-)

You haven't said much.

 ->>>>> Fine, but please come into the discussion honestly and admit
 J> that
 J>>>>> abortion is
 ->>>>>> ending a human life.

 J>>>>> I honestly don't believe that.

 ->>>> I cannot see why...
 J>>> (Probably because that part of your "I" doesn't want to.)

 ->> No kidding?
 J> No kidding.


 J>>> I already stated my opinion on those molecules....

 ->> Again, you dehumanize it to ease your conscience.
 J> MY conscience?

Yes, your conscience. So you can say you empathize with the woman.

 J>>>>> It is the termination of a pregnancy.

 ->>>> And termination of a life whether you want to believe or not.
 J>>> I understand that is your opinion.

 ->> It is a FACT! It isn't merely an opinion.
 J> It is a FACT that it is your opinion. :-)

You are talking in circles.



 ->> I'm the one dealing with reality here...

 J> And dealing with it poorly.

In your elitist opinion.

 J>  Your referring to the unborn child a
 ->> mere collection of molecules is bizarre.


 J>>> ife
 ->>>>>> support too if they aren't convenient?
 J>>>>> All? No. Some? Depends. If the neuron aren't
firing...there's no
 J> one
 J>>> there.




 J>>>>>>>>> economic slavery .... the choice of
Leo Strauss and the
 J>>> neocons...

 ->>>>>>>> "[E]conomic slavery?"
 J>>>>>>> Yes. Absolute servitude to the elitists.


 ->>>>>> You mean like...

 J>>>>> I don't 'mean like anything other than what I've said.
 J>>>>> Nothing in the current administration has anything
to do with the
 J>>> Political
 J>>>>> Philosophy of Leo Strauss. (Which as interpreted by
the Neocons is
 J>>> scary as
 J>>>>> hell.

 ->>>> That doesn't change the fact that Obama and his people are
 J> elitists.
 J>>> Good! Pragmatists as well.
 J>>> I think, just off hand, that someone who receives a D.J Summa cum
 J> laude
 J>>> could well be described as an elitist. An elite crowd is better than
 J> a
 J>>> bunch of power-hungry ragamuffins...:-|

 ->>>> "Neocon" is code for Jew.
 J>>> That is simply not true.

 J>>>>> (Tangential, and redefining of elite):

 ->>>>>> .... serving Obama and his elitist
administration? Where is
 J> having
 J>>> the
 ->>>>>> authority to fire the CEO of a corporation in
the Constitution?
 J>>> Where is
 J>>>>> the
 ->>>>>> authority for forcing another corporation to
merge with another?

 J>>>>> The same authority that FDR has in closing the
banks, introducing
 J>>> Social
 J>>>>> Security et cetera...

 ->>>> In other words, it isn't there.
 J>>> Welcome to the post 1800's!



 ->>>>>> Is it not elitist for the director of Homeland Security to
 J> release
 J>>> an
 J>>>>> advisory
 ->>>>>> labeling anyone who disagrees with the president
a right-wing
 J>>> extremist
 J>>>>> and
 ->>>>>> potential terrorist?

 J>>> No. Merely a stupid statement.

 ->> Ah, I see you had to delete the URL I gave you with which you could
 J> learn
 ->> something. You then claim the above is a stupid statement.


 ->> Fox News:

 ->> Need I continue?

 J> No. :-) I don't scamper round the net garnering ill-founded opinions from
 J> sources I don't believe credible.

It isn't "ill founded opinion!"

It is fact. Those URLs I gave you are to stories reporting about the
document calling returning veterans and conservatives who disagree with the
Obama administration extreme right-wing terrorists.

Napalitano (sp?) had to have a news conference to try to deny the
allegations the document made. The American Legion, VFW and other veteran
associations sent letters condemning the document causing Napalitano to do
her back step.

 J> Thanks anyway...

I see you don't want to read anything critical of your messiah Obama.

Ed

-- 
"Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the
entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world
disagrees with it." --Jewish philosopher Maimonides (1135-1204)

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