Hello Alan,

 AI>>> I don't know where you got the idea that FN_SYSOP and FIDO_SYSOP
 AI>>> are general chat echoes but you are wrong.

 LL>> A bunch of folks chatting in an open echo sure looks like a general
 LL>> chat echo to me.

 AI> It is a bunch of sysops chatting amongst themselves in the case of those
two
 AI> echoes.

Sysops are welcome to chat anywhere and everywhere they like.
The same should be true for non-sysops as well.

 AI>>> There is nothing sinister or anti-democratic about that.

 LL>> Of course not.  I get them both just fine.

 AI> Yes, I know. I don't think there is anything sinister or anti-democratic
 AI> about that either. A little sneaky maybe but no big deal.

Limiting access is anti-democratic.  Just as limiting voting.
Censorship is even worse.  That is why all such "rules" should
be ignored, having no legitimacy.

There is nothing sneaky about reading what participants post
in a general chat echo.  Especially since access to those echoes
is open to all, both sysops and non-sysops alike.  What is sneaky
is the efforts of some to impose their will on those who have not
given their consent to make decisions on their own behalf.

When a small handful of sysops get together and seek to impose
their will on others, including those who have not been given a
say in the matter, it is an act of force and coercion.  A desire
of getting something for nothing.

That is not just sneaky.  It is downright sinister!

 AI>>> Most fidonet sysops have spent their time and money over the
 AI>>> years making the fidonet echoes available to all and they still
 AI>>> do that today.

 AI>>> I don't find the fact that sysops have an echo of their own
 AI>>> limiting.

 LL>> Sysops have all the echoes that are and that there can possibly be
 LL>> in Fidonet.  Not just some, a few, many, or most, but ALL.

 AI> Sysops are not that different than users.

Both sysops and non-sysops are individuals whose goals should be
the same (in regards to FidoNet).  However, some sysops seek to use
a forced exchange as opposed to a voluntary exchange as a means of
satisfying their own needs and wants.  And that is where our views
differ.

Forced coercion implies violence or the threat of violence.
Would it not be better to use persuasion and cooperation to get
what you want or desire?  Of course, if you have no leg to stand
on, I can understand your want to use threats of force to get
what you want.  But there is nothing moral at all in so doing.

 AI> They have a node number and software that is available to anyone who wants
 AI> it. They may connect to or disconnect from areas as they see fit.

There is no need for anyone to have a node number in order to
participate in a general chat echo.  Participants are free to come
and go as they please, with or without a node number.  There is
not even a need for a moderator.  So why have either?

The only thing partipants need is more participants.  I mean,
participating by oneself is not very much fun.  Much better to
participate with others.  The more the merrier.  So I say let
everybody play.

 LL>> Isn't that amazing?  Sharing those echoes with users (probationary
 LL>> sysops) would enable Fidonet to grow, rather than shrink.

 AI> Fidonets numbers peaked around '96 or there about. It has been shrinking
 AI> ever since. I don't expect that to change but until the last pkt has been
 AI> tossed I support and enjoy fidonet.

"Too few users."  That was the reason C.G. Learn gave for throwing
in the towel.  How to make FidoNet attractive again is a task that
all sysops should ask themselves.  Should they bar outsiders from
participating, or invite all to play?  We already know the answer
to that one.

 AI> It was a blip on the radar like so many things in life but I am glad to
have
 AI> been and continue to be a part of it.

And I hope FidoNet will be around for many generations to come,
even if that means a different form, given changes in technology.

 LL>> So it is best to share ALL with ALL, wouldn't you agree?

 AI> Yes, all within echo rules, wouldn't you agree?

Liberty is anarchy.  That is what I believe, and what all should
believe.  It is the only thing worthy of belief, in my opinion.

--Lee

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